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Messages - mdxix

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106
GPS Discussion / Re: GPS Data Wish List
« on: August 24, 2012, 07:44:54 am »
KML? Maybe, if enough members want it for bicycle navigation, this would be worth spending staff time (=money) on.
The request here is for open & accessible format. For those interested in KML, there are plenty of tools out there that would convert from GPX—no need to spend any of ACA time or money. That will only work if the GPX file is structured properly.

KML is just one example. There are many other formats that users may be interested in.

I will edit the original post to state this intent of my comment: Test conversion to multiple formats and various online mapping tools

107
GPS Discussion / Re: GPS Data Wish List
« on: August 24, 2012, 07:34:59 am »
consider taking a wiki approach to the data and allow users to rate, comment, and flag waypoints.
I like that Chris, something along the lines of waymarking.com or some other location based services. Download the the desired points to the GPS, view on the web, or view on a mobile device. Brilliant.

108
GPS Discussion / Re: GPS Data Wish List
« on: August 22, 2012, 10:45:25 pm »
I vote for 5 & 6. In my view, it is essential to keep the data sets independent, modular, and compatible with many platform.

I thought the blog that Jennifer wrote was very promising. She made statements about "robust database", "mobile mapping solution is not if, but when", & "waypoints can be kept up to date easily and in an unobtrusive way". I could not agree more.

On the several trips that I have taken on four ACA routes, I never used the files as is. Nor have I read in this forum that someone simply loaded the files as is in their GPS unit, regardless of make and model.

That is, the more these files are easy to handle, manipulate, and use on various tools the better. Hence, I add:

6. Keep open & accessible across multiple platforms.

In other words, I would rather there not be a preference toward a few models versus others. People are using all kinds of technology that is advancing every year, including mobile.

Instead, I prefer to see the files use open standards that are modular working on multiple platforms. Create, for example, a quality check list that includes:
  • Test conversion to multiple formats and various online mapping tools (edited 24aug2012)
  • Test on multiple GPS units (recruit some test volunteers from the membership community)
  • Test the file on a mobile device (test volunteers can help)
This applies to both routes & waypoint—but keep them separate ;)

Best of luck to your team. This is a big effort. Thank you for your time.

109
GPS Discussion / Re: How do you use the Adventure Cycling GPS waypoints?
« on: August 15, 2012, 10:01:27 pm »
They are not editable. We add a comment to every waypoint naming the roads or the turn, so you can anticipate the junction even when navigating straight-line with a basic receiver. We also add elevations in mountainous terrain.
In BaseCamp, draw a route using route points (not waypoints), select a route point, right click for properties, and add comments to you heart's desire.

Regardless, given your three choices
The elements are these:
  1. Waypoints created by ACA that mark off-route points of interest.
  2. Waypoints created by ACA that mark the riding route.
  3. Routepoints created by Garmin software when told to navigate following roads. Garmain calls these mapoints in their user interface, and rpt in the GPX file.

This is exactly what I was looking for:
As I wrote above, we can easily separate 1 from 2 and 3 by their symbols, creating two files: (1) and (2,3).

This way, it allows me to manage the points of interest in (1) as I wish, storing them separately, filtering them, etc. I can also easily extract (3) from (2,3) to have the navigation routes. It is then less risk of losing (1) in the process when extracting (3) from (1,2,3) all in one file.

Thank you for taking all this input.

110
GPS Discussion / Re: How do you use the Adventure Cycling GPS waypoints?
« on: August 15, 2012, 07:27:40 pm »
specify an ordered list of two or more waypoints and tell the program--in a computer or in a GPS receiver--to build a route from them.
You are correct Fred. This is certainly one way to construct a route. I can understand how this may have been useful for certain units that ignore route points, as you pointed out. Therefore, you had to include the waypoints in the file for navigation.
My old GPS-III+ ignores the route points entirely, showing no waypoints and no routes.

How many of the ACA community have this restriction is hard to know. I want to think this is a rare case, because the GPX 1.1 standard has been around for some time. Units as simple as eTrex 10 now recognize routes. The ACA will have to decide how far back to support GPS units.

That leaves us with routes & route points are the elements we need for navigation.
once the route is built, the waypoints are no longer needed if you never need to change the route.

The programs I use never require that I specify waypoints to construct a route. Here are some examples:
  • MapSource: start on a new map, select from the menu Tools > Route (notice another tool for Waypoints, but we do not want that), use the mouse to drop route points on the map, they get connected by a route, the Waypoints tab in MapSource does not contain any waypoints, select from the menu File > Save, choose GPX format, Save, open the file in a text editor to view its content. There are no waypoints in the file.
  • BaseCamp: start on a new map, select from the menu Tools > Route  (notice another tool for Waypoints, but we do not want that), use the mouse to drop route points on the map, they get connected by a route, the Collection list still only has the route without any waypoints, select from the menu File > Export Selected User Data, Save, open the file in a text editor to view its content. There are no waypoints in the file.
  • Online maps like RideWithGPS.com, GPSies.com, & MapMyRide.com: none of them require waypoints. I simply start charting the route. When I download it, it is also only constructed of routes & route points. There are no waypoints.
    There is an advantage to these online tools: they use Google maps which include bicycle paths. They are also accessible from anywhere and can be easily shared.

With that in mind, it seems that the ACA GPX file is mixing two data sets that are not related in one file:
  • Waypoints that are points of interest
  • Routes that are navigation paths
Each of them is very useful for the trip and needed along the way. I just manage & view them differently.

111
GPS Discussion / Re: How do you use the Adventure Cycling GPS waypoints?
« on: August 14, 2012, 11:21:22 pm »
  2. Waypoints created by ACA that mark the riding route.
Waypoints are waypoints and riding routes are riding routes. There is no mixing between the two. The fact that some waypoints happen to be along the route does not make them part of the route. The routes in the GPX file do not have or mix with any waypoints. Instead, they have route points. See prior example.

As we reviewed earlier, one can strip the GPX file completely from the waypoints and still navigate the route.

I believe you have an older GPS-III+ unit that only recognizes waypoints but not routes. That should work as well, as I suggested earlier to separate routes & waypoints. Users can choose to use one or both.

The method for separating them depends on the tool you are using. Manual separation was quick and reliable. I often use online tools like GPSies.com & RideWithGPS.com. I think they all yield the same result.

112
GPS Discussion / Re: How do you use the Adventure Cycling GPS waypoints?
« on: August 14, 2012, 10:59:31 pm »
I really think it is about consistency, reliability, and usability of the routes. I think it is to the users advantage to have the full route details (breadcrumbs or extensions), in addition to the route points.

It provides the following several advantages:
  • Reliable route: the GPS unit will display the route exactly as intended by the cartographers. It does not rely on the map or calculation method of the device, which may be incorrect. For example:
    • Some units may use car routing, taking a faster route rather than the intended slower road next to it.
    • Most maps (including the current version of City Navigator) do not include off-road bicycle paths. When the route is calculated in the unit between two points, it will follow roads, not bicycle paths. Try calculating route R31101 through Burlington, VT. Yikes!
  • Less cost: with full details, units with or without maps can follow the route. Maps can also be from various sources: Open Street Maps, Topo maps, City Navigator, and others. The route is already known. The map is optional for reference only.
  • Compatibility: I assume not all users have Garmin with City Navigator. But that should not matter because route details are all built in. There is no need to rely on if and how the unit will calculate the route.
  • More view options during trip preparation. With full route details, the route can be easily loaded and viewed on many maps & web sites. There is no need to recalculate or manipulate. It will show as intended.

113
GPS Discussion / Re: How do you use the Adventure Cycling GPS waypoints?
« on: August 14, 2012, 12:01:13 am »
Jennifer & team, thank you for making the map data available electronically. They have been essential for my trips.

I use them differently on each trip, depending on my technical skills and the tools I am using. These are ever changing, as the technology advances and GPS units get more capable. There are also many ideas on this forum how people use these maps—there seems to be endless creative ways.

In that light, the maps are easiest for me to use when they are open & accessible.

You are already using an open GPX file standard that has worked for me with any unit & software. It almost always require me to process it manually in three ways:

  • Separate the routes from the waypoints. As Fred and I discussed earlier, the GPX file contains both waypoints and routes. I prefer to keep and manage them separately.
  • Coincide the routes with paper map sections, as Pat suggested earlier.
  • Calculate the route to follow intended path as compared with the paper map. Many (not all) ACA GPX files have routes that are straight lines between marked route points. Some GPS units can calculate the route internally and some others (like my current Edge 705) cannot. Either way, there is a chance that the calculation will not follow the intended route. Besides, this calculation depends on the map set being used, which may not have all roads, and likely do not have off-road trails.
    I am not sure why ACA has some routes with all their details and others without. I hope that the move is in the direction of more details, not less.
Good luck with your new adventure.

114
Indeed, the waypoint limit of 1,000 is not a problem because there are no waypoints. However, the route limit of 50 in my 60CS was reached. Bill, do you know the route limit on your receiver? If it's 100, and if your receiver will navigate from the route points like Rami's and mine, you could do this in one load. You would give up the ability to edit the route on the road.
Bill, here is the NT file stripped of all waypoints. I created it for testing. Feel free to use it as needed. Please send us feedback how it worked out for you.

For your trip, remember to download the latest file.

115
Each route includes an ordered sequence of rtept elements, which repeat the information in the wpt elements.
Route points in ACA files repeat some waypoints. Not all waypoints are present in routes. They are points of interest or reference. For example, in the Green Mountains file, near the beginning of route R01010, near its first route point R01080, there are three waypoints that are not part of the route at all: R0104A (hotel), R01040 (bicycle shop), R01030 (bicycle shop).

To clarify, the sample Green Mountains GPX file I provided was not calculated or created by a computer.
Sure it was, probably by my copy of MapSource, or another volunteer's, maybe by Jennifer's at ACA.
Good catch ;) I meant to say that I did not further process this file, create new content, or use a mapping tool. I simply deleted the waypoints using a text editor.

I took it one step further to see what the 60CS does to a route when a waypoint on it is present and is moved by editing in the GPSR but the route is not edited. When asked to navigate the route, the unit follows the change. I'd summarize it by saying that the 60CS uses waypoints info when present, otherwise uses the route points.
The Edge 705 behaved kept the route intact. I edited the waypoint far off course, and that did not change the route.

What happens when you change a waypoint that does not belong to a route, such as R0104A?

116
rather than using the route that the computer creates.
To clarify, the sample Green Mountains GPX file I provided was not calculated or created by a computer. For simplicity, I did the following:
  • Downloaded the file from ACA Green Mountains route web site
  • Opened the file in text editor
  • Deleted the entire first section for the file that contains waypoints within <wpt> tags
  • Saved & loaded on the GPS unit. Voilà.

117
Mdxix, could you clarify, please?
My suggestion is to put the ACA route on the GPS unit without the waypoints. You can see the route, navigate, and get prompts for directions.

Fred & Bill, can you try loading the Green Mountains file on your GPS? It is at
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/GM01v003.gpx

I have stripped this file from any waypoints. Can your GPS navigate its routes? Does it show you that it did not add any waypoints?

Let me clarify with some details. ACA files have two main sections in them:
  • The top section has a list of waypoints. These are scattered all over the map. They are independent of each other. They are not connected to each other in any way. They are points of interest. These are wrapped with <wpt> tags. They have the coordinates and name for each waypoint as the following example:
      <wpt lat="44.4690527" lon="-73.1807019">
        <name>R01020</name>
        <cmt>Holiday Inn</cmt>
        <desc>Holiday Inn</desc>
        <sym>Lodging</sym>
        <extensions>...
        </extensions>
      </wpt>
  • The second part of the file has routes (within <rte> tag) connected by route points (within <rtept> tag), not waypoints. They appear as follows in the file:
      <rte>
        <name>R01010</name>
        <extensions>...
        </extensions>
        <rtept lat="44.4745800" lon="-73.2195100">
          <name>R01080</name>
          <cmt>King St/Bike Path</cmt>

As far as I can tell, when you choose a route to navigate, you are choosing it from the second part of the file, not the first. I know this because I can completely delete the entire first part of the file and still navigate just as well. Only the GPS memory is not exhausted by waypoints. See the screen images I posted earlier.

Does the same happen to you with the sample Green Mountains file?

118
You would give up the navigation feature, though.
That is curious Fred. As far as I can tell, the GPS will navigate based on the route (and route points), irrelevant of the waypoints it has scattered on the map. Do you think it works differently?

I tested the following for the Green Mountains loop. I stripped the file from all waypoints as follows:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/GM01v003.gpx

I loaded the file on my Edge 705 and started navigating R01010 as shown in the following image:



In the two panels to the left, you see the navigation route, distance to next, and prompts at turns. In this case, the Edge 705 shows only straight lines. But that is a different topic that we discussed at length.

In the right panel, the list of waypoints is empty.

Is your experience different?

119
Could you load the maps on the GPS unit without the waypoints? Do you need them on the GPS? Refer to the paper maps as needed along the way for points of interest.

120
New England / Re: New Haven to Albany, suggested routes?
« on: July 27, 2012, 12:21:54 am »
Take a look at CT bicycle map. Route 5 connects New Haven to Canaan in NW CT. From there, head west to reach NY State Bicycle Route 9. That will get you all the north to Albany.

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