Author Topic: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?  (Read 6789 times)

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Offline mdxix

What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« on: March 20, 2012, 09:51:50 pm »
1. I downloaded the Atlantic Coast GPX file yesterday. The file was stamped with MapSource 6.12.2. Is this correct?

2. If so, how do you save them? I found it strange that the route appeared as straight lines on my Edge 705. I have used MapSource before and it worked fine with the Edge. With the latest ACA route, I had to import it to Garmin BaseCamp, recalculate, and save back to the Edge.

What do you use to create the routes?

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 12:38:11 am »
Our primary tool is MapSource loaded with City Navigator and US Topo maps. Secondarily, we use Google Maps and its Street View to position some waypoints.

The GPX file contains the waypoints themselves and lists of waypoints that constitute the GPS route. They contain nothing about roads. The choice of straight-line navigation or road-following "auto-routing" is a function of the map data in your PC and the GPS receiver and, of course, their ability to use those data. The simplest receivers do not support auto-routing.

Assuming your PC is loaded with City Navigator, go to Edit > Preferences > Routing to select whether MapSource will produce straight-line routes or auto-routing.

To help make that choice, read Considerations for Mapping Receivers in the sticky topic Using Adventure Cycling GPS Data at the top of this group. My own preference is for straight-line navigation.

Receivers that are more suitable for touring can switch modes as you go along. I do not know whether the Edge can do that while following a course. Let us know when you find out, please.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 10:25:06 pm »
Receivers that are more suitable for touring can switch modes as you go along. I do not know whether the Edge can do that while following a course. Let us know when you find out, please.
I know how to recalculate the route from straight lines to follow the roads using MapSource (discontinued Garmin product) and BaseCamp (current Garmin routing product).

1. Are you saying there are GPS units that recalculate the route from straight lines to follow the roads? In other words, can you download a GPX file from ACA web site with straight lines, copy to the Garmin unit, recalculate the route within the unit itself to follow roads, and navigate it?

2. What Garmin GPS unit are you using for that?

3. The Edge has the two options to "Follow Roads" and "Off Road". That is used when the GPS is creating a new route or navigating to a waypoint. Are you referring to this feature in your unit? How do you use it to recalculate an existing loaded route?

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 08:35:17 am »
For those who have not been studying trip planning software, MapSource is still current. It heads the list at http://www.garmin.com/us/maps/trip_planning_software. BaseCamp is newer, and Garmin has added many new features to it: 3D terrain views, satellite images, and geo-tagged photos. They both manage maps, tracks, routes, and waypoints; and transfer them to the receiver.

[opinion] MapSource runs faster on my computer. Its user interface is, to be generous, clunky, but once learned, it is fast and manages the data without the new features getting in the way. [/opinion]

Responding to your numbered questions:

1. Most GPS models in the Garmin outdoor line can navigate from a collection of waypoints, typically up to 30 - 50 waypoints. You can get the waypoints in the ACA files, make your own on your computer, or find them on the Internet. You load them into the GPSR with any of the Garmin programs or many more third-party programs. You can even create them in the GPSR itself, although the small screen and limited keypad make this tedious.

Note that all you transfer are the waypoints. When placed in sequence, they define a route. If you have an auto-routing map product, City Navigator for example, in your computer, it will create straight-line navigation directions or road-following navigation directions along that route, as you choose in Preferences.

The most basic GPSRs create straight-line navigation directions only. Auto-routing GPSRs, when loaded with an auto-routing map product like City Navigator and the same sequence of waypoints, will also create straight-line navigation directions or road-following navigation directions along that route, as you choose in a screen under the Routes menu. You can recalculate at any time.

Care is needed when planning an auto-routed trip on the computer. The GPSR may compute different road-following navigation directions than the computer did, even when loaded with the same map. Occasionally, I need to add a waypoint to direct the algorithm to the road I want.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145 lists the most popular auto-routing models for biking. The "sport" models specialized for golf, swimming, biking, etc. appear not to handle routes with several waypoints.

2. My current receiver is a GPSMAP 60Cs.

3. My receiver and the other "outdoor" units name the two kinds of navigation directions the same: "off road" for straight lines and "follow road." The difference is that they can handle 30 - 50 intermediate waypoints, where (if I understand correctly) the Edge navigates to a single waypoint at the destination. Correct me if I have that wrong, please.

If I want to switch to the other kind of navigation while following an existing loaded route, I press MENU > RECALCULATE, and select Off Road or Follow Road.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 05:18:11 pm »
MapSource is a great piece of software. It is very fast. I particularly like the way it handles files and the simple user interface. When I switched to a Mac last year, BaseCamp was Garmin's product for it. Since then, BaseCamp became also available on Windows. And it looks like Garmin stopped developing MapSource. The latest version for MapSource 6.16.3 was last updated 15 months ago on 25 October 2010, compared with BaseCamp 3.3.1 as of last month on 10 February 2012: http://www8.garmin.com/support/mappingsw.jsp

3. You are correct. The Edge does not recalculate stored routes within the unit. That is the case for changing the routing method and reversing the route.

4. I am curious now, why save the routes as direct lines? That limits usage to specific units, and risks the possibility of the unit calculating the route differently from the original intention. Also, CityNavigator maps do not include trails. When the unit recalculates the route, it will move it onto roads, not knowing about the intended trail option. A full route with bread crumbs also allow anyone with any unit to use the file after a quick and easy conversion to their format, using a web site such as GPSies to KML, TCX, and others.

Is it file size? I tried to find the difference using Section 1 of the Atlantic Coast route from Bar Harbor, ME to Boston, MA. The file AC01v007.gpx is 670KB. Using BaseCamp, I changed all the routes to follow the roads and saved them as such with bread crumbs. The result was a file size of 1,536KB, more than twice the original.

The entire Atlantic Coast route files are 3,135KB. For following the road & trails, assume the size will triple at 10,000KB or 10MB. That is still a very small amount, given the internal storage capacity of these units is more than 500MB (1,700MB in GPSMAP 62 & eTrex 20, 850MB for Dakota 10 & Oregon 450), not including SD cards that are 2,000–4,000MB.

Is there more to it?

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 11:45:38 pm »
...3. You are correct. The Edge does not recalculate stored routes within the unit. That is the case for changing the routing method and reversing the route.

Thank you. This rounds out the picture of the Edge.

4. I am curious now, why save the routes as direct lines? That limits usage to specific units, and risks the possibility of the unit calculating the route differently from the original intention. Also, CityNavigator maps do not include trails. When the unit recalculates the route, it will move it onto roads, not knowing about the intended trail option. A full route with bread crumbs also allow anyone with any unit to use the file after a quick and easy conversion to their format, using a web site such as GPSies to KML, TCX, and others.

Is it file size? ... Is there more to it?
You seem to remain under the impression that a route exists as a series of straight lines or as a path that follows a road, despite my attempts to explain. I will try it just one more time:

     A GPS route is an ordered collection of waypoints. Nothing more, nothing less.

Make a little route--three or four waypoints will do--in MapSource or any other program. Save it as a GPX file. Open this file in a text reader like Notepad or Text Edit. It is plain text and easy to read. You will see some introductory material followed by the waypoints. Nothing more, nothing less.

What you see on your computer screen or your GPSR is what the software makes of that GPS route. All GPSRs that I know, even the simplest non-mapping receivers--can produce straight-line navigation directions from the route. Auto-routing receivers, when loaded with an auto-routing map, can produce road-following navigation directions from that route. (I do not know the golf and swimming models.)

Your "full route with breadcrumbs" is generally termed a track, or in the Edge documentation, a course. All those data points produce a nicely detailed path on a map. However, a track does not supply navigation directions except in the limited sense of watching the map to see whether you are on track, and perhaps distance to the destination. It is useless on a non-mapping receiver.

Most of us want directions like "3.6 miles to Randolph St. Turn right," as in the narrative route descriptions on the ACA maps. Both mapping and non-mapping receivers can produce those directions from the ACA GPS routes. That is why we present the data as GPS routes.

If you prefer the trail of breadcrumbs, tracks of the ACA bike routes are widely available on the web and readily loaded into a receiver than contains enough memory.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 06:14:07 pm »
You seem to remain under the impression that a route exists as a series of straight lines or as a path that follows a road,
GPX routes contain the waypoints within the <rtept> tag and bread crumbs between waypoints in <extensions> tag.

When a program like MapSource is set to Use Direct Routes (Edit > Preferences > Routing > Route Style > Use Direct Routes), then the GPX route file contains only the waypoints that the user defines.

For example, I created file mstestd.gpx. I dropped three random waypoints in Missoula using direct route method. MapSource drew straight lines between these three waypoints. Inside the GPX file, there are three <rtept> tags, each containing one of the three waypoints. There are also three <extensions> tags, but they are empty because this is a direct route. Here is the first waypoint as an example:

    <rtept lat="46.87122224830091" lon="-113.99796235375106">
      <time>2012-03-23T21:38:34Z</time>
      <name>Missoula</name>
      <cmt>Missoula</cmt>
      <desc>Missoula</desc>
      <sym>Waypoint</sym>
      <extensions>
        <gpxx:RoutePointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3">
          <gpxx:Subclass>03002FEB7F001200CE080321AE00A5544DEF</gpxx:Subclass>
        </gpxx:RoutePointExtension>
      </extensions>
    </rtept>

Without making any changes to the waypoints or the type of the route, I recalculated it to follow the roads. I set MapSource to Use Auto-Routing (Edit > Preferences > Routing > Route Style > Use Auto-Routing). I right-clicked on the route name and selected Recalculate Route. The straight lines were replaced with lines that follow the road. I saved this recalculated routed in file mstestr.gpx. Inside the GPX file, there are the same three <rtept> tags. The main difference is that the <extensions> tags have intermediate waypoints that connect the main waypoints. Here is a portion of the first waypoint as an example:

    <rtept lat="46.87122224830091" lon="-113.99796235375106">
      <time>2012-03-23T21:38:34Z</time>
      <name>Missoula</name>
      <cmt>Missoula</cmt>
      <desc>Missoula</desc>
      <sym>Waypoint</sym>
      <extensions>
        <gpxx:RoutePointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3">
          <gpxx:Subclass>03002FEB7F001200CE080321AE00A5544DEF</gpxx:Subclass>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.871087467297912" lon="-113.99817190133035">
            <gpxx:Subclass>06009DEB7F0019C500002116000012001200</gpxx:Subclass>
          </gpxx:rpt>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.870808601379395" lon="-113.99778842926025">
            <gpxx:Subclass>06009DEB7F0033C700001F060000B8EA1600</gpxx:Subclass>
          </gpxx:rpt>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.871151924133301" lon="-113.99727344512939">
            <gpxx:Subclass>06009DEB7F0043C700001F020000BDEA5000</gpxx:Subclass>
          </gpxx:rpt>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.870765686035156" lon="-113.99675846099854"/>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.870379447937012" lon="-113.99598598480225"/>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="46.870121955871582" lon="-113.99529933929443">
          … and so on

Both files are routes. They appear under the Routes tab of MapSource, not under Tracks. They are not a course either, since MapSource does not deal with courses and the file does not have .crs or .tcx extension.

What do you think?

I am not able to attach the files to this post. I put a copy on Dropbox at
mstestd.gpx at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/mstestd.gpx
mstestd.gdb at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/mstestd.gdb
mstestr.gpx at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/mstestr.gpx
mstestr.gdb at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/mstestr.gdb
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:05:01 pm by mdxix »

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 09:03:22 pm »
Very interesting! Garmin's extension to GPX does indeed add intermediate "breadcrumbs" to the route. (They did this while I was not looking. <grin>) I see the MapSource version in the file. What map set was active when you made this route?

My other GPX capable programs, OziExplorer and G7toWin, both ignore the Garmin extensions and generate straight-line navigation from mtestr.gpx.

Why? This drove me to the Garmin developer web pages, where the extension is explained at http://developer.garmin.com/web-device/garmin-mass-storage-mode-devices/, "Garmin Mass Storage Mode devices such as the nüvi 350/360, nüvi 660, StreetPilot c550, and the zumo no longer communicate with a computer with the Garmin Protocol but instead present themselves as a USB mass storage device...

"One interesting Garmin-proprietary extension which should be preserved when reading data from and writing data to Garmin Mass Storage devices such as the zumo is the detailed route point extension. The route point extension fits into the extensions field of a gpx rtept element and contains the very detailed path, to the next waypoint. The intent of the detailed routepoints is to ensure that a route generated with a Garmin application or with a Garmin Mass Storage Device can be shared with another Garmin Mass Storage device and still represent the exact same desired path."

This extension neatly addresses the problem to which I alluded up-thread: different devices or programs will generate different paths from the same route.

I am glad the tech writer took care to distinguish the route in the data file from the path that we navigate on the screen.

I looked for other receivers that are Garmin Mass Storage Mode devices with no luck. A Google search for Garmin Mass Storage Mode devices turns up a lot of confusion among developers and some pointers to the page I mentioned here.

Have you any idea how widely applicable a file with these route-point extensions would be? The models Garmin mentions are automotive, not suitable for cycling. If a lot of receivers would use it, we should consider supporting it. This would entail a good deal of work, as divided highways and one-way streets would require separate routes for each direction.

FWIW, when fed mtestr.gpx, my GPSMAP 60CS ignores the path in the file and generates its own; which incidentally is not the same as the one in the file. This is definitely not a Garmin Mass Storage Mode device.

You noted in your OP that you have used MapSource before and it worked fine with the Edge. With the latest ACA route, you had to import it to Garmin BaseCamp, recalculate, and save back to the Edge. Did you try generating a road-following path in MapSource before transferring the route to the Edge? I'd guess that might be the difference between what worked and the ACA route. It sounds like the Edge will use the route-point extensions.

Sorry this got so long.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 08:31:38 pm »
I am using City Navigator North America 2012.4 (I have nüMaps Lifetime for North America & Europe, so I always get the latest).

I am not sure how widely applicable is a file with these route-point extensions. I would like to think most of the newer units do. For example, I was looking at the very basic eTrex 10 on Garmin web site:
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=144&pID=87768
It indicates that the GPS is compatible with Garmin Connect. That is a small hint that it does support detailed routes and possibly TCX tracks. I will call Garmin on Monday and check. I will also likely pick one up this week from REI and test it for sure.

The question I have is will it hurt older units to have this extra data? Ideally, units can either use it or ignore it without causing trouble. This will need some testing.

I am not very clear on your last question about ACA routes. I am able to load ACA routes onto MapSource & BaseCamp, recalculate, send to Edge, and navigate. Is that what you meant?

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 10:48:42 pm »
... I am not sure how widely applicable is a file with these route-point extensions. I would like to think most of the newer units do. For example, I was looking at the very basic eTrex 10 on Garmin web site: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=144&pID=87768 It indicates that the GPS is compatible with Garmin Connect. That is a small hint that it does support detailed routes and possibly TCX tracks. I will call Garmin on Monday and check. I will also likely pick one up this week from REI and test it for sure.

I know the eTrex 10. This basic receiver does not do road-following at all. It does not accept detailed maps like CN, although it has a base map built in, whose detail is roughly similar to a state highway map.

The question I have is will it hurt older units to have this extra data? Ideally, units can either use it or ignore it without causing trouble. This will need some testing.

Receivers--old or new--that cannot use the route-point extensions do ignore them. We would have heard loud screams long before now if they caused trouble.

I am not very clear on your last question about ACA routes. I am able to load ACA routes onto MapSource & BaseCamp, recalculate, send to Edge, and navigate. Is that what you meant?

Your OP seems to imply that you had to import the route into BaseCamp and recalculate for Follow Road before the Edge could use it. It is good to know that MapSource can do the same.

I do have a question about how the Edge navigates at turns. Where the route turns onto a new street, what info does it give you? Distance to the turn? Direction to turn? Name of the street? Or just a path on the map?

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 10:09:43 am »
5. eTrex: how do you navigate with an eTrex 10? I am looking at the picture on Garmin web site. It looks as if the little arrow is following some pre-determined detailed path. Is that a route (GPX), course (TCX), or something else?

I am also reading the manual. Page 16 indicates the "You can navigate a route, a track…". Is that for the 20 & 30 models only?

If this basic unit can handle detailed routes (GPX with route-point extensions or TCX), then this would be very promising and encouraging to add those details to ACA routes.

6. Compatibility: this would be great news. I am thinking that the current ACA routes contain only the waypoints, without the route-point extensions. Do you think that adding them now will not cause trouble? Otherwise, I am all for adding the route-point extensions. See separate private message.

Another advantage of having the route-point extensions is that users will not be required to purchase maps. I use this feature when navigating on the Edge in Asia, for which I do not have maps. I simply follow the detailed TCX course.

TCX courses have more advanced features that older CRS courses. They can include custom navigation alerts.

7. Edge navigation: I want to clarify that the Edge can use the ACA routes as is, without manipulating them with BaseCamp or MapSource. Only, they will appear as straight lines. The Edge will give compass navigations at these points such as go North and Northeast. As we established in #3 earlier, the Edge does not recalculate stored routes within the unit.

When there is a map on the unit, and the route follows the road on that map, the Edge will give all the directions you mention. There is even a page that displays all the cue sheet entries of all upcoming turns and distance to each.

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2012, 06:51:55 pm »
5. eTrex: how do you navigate with an eTrex 10? I am looking at the picture on Garmin web site. It looks as if the little arrow is following some pre-determined detailed path. Is that a route (GPX), course (TCX), or something else?

I am also reading the manual. Page 16 indicates the "You can navigate a route, a track…". Is that for the 20 & 30 models only?

If this basic unit can handle detailed routes (GPX with route-point extensions or TCX), then this would be very promising and encouraging to add those details to ACA routes.

Page 17 says, "Driving route navigation is only available on the eTrex 20 and eTrex 30. Before you can use the map, you must purchase and load City Navigator maps." In search of more detail than the skimpy Garmin manual provides, I found this excellent feature chart of the whole Garmin line.

The wiggly line in the web site illustration looks like a track to me. Unless we hear otherwise, it looks safe to say that the eTrex 10 does not accept maps (it has a small-scale world base map built in) and it does not follow roads. One has to spend a little more money for these features.

6. Compatibility: this would be great news. I am thinking that the current ACA routes contain only the waypoints, without the route-point extensions. Do you think that adding them now will not cause trouble? Otherwise, I am all for adding the route-point extensions. See separate private message.

Another advantage of having the route-point extensions is that users will not be required to purchase maps.

As I wrote up-thread, adding route-point extensions does not cause trouble for receivers that cannot use them.

I am still looking for a list of the Garmin models that can use them. Do all such models depend on a computer to generate the road-following path, or can some do auto-routing on their own? These are questions the ACA needs to answer as a market survey to judge the worth of adding route-point extensions.

Adding these would not be trivial. We would need separate routes for the two directions of travel, and many single waypoints would need to become two. See also the Considerations for Mapping Receivers. This is not rocket science, but 41,399 miles of bike routes makes it a big job.

I admit to some skepticism about using a path without a map under it. Would a wiggly line between waypoints on an otherwise blank screen be much more useful than a straight line? I think I'd buy the map if I had already invested this much in GPS.

7. Edge navigation: I want to clarify that the Edge can use the ACA routes as is, without manipulating them with BaseCamp or MapSource. Only, they will appear as straight lines. The Edge will give compass navigations at these points such as go North and Northeast. As we established in #3 earlier, the Edge does not recalculate stored routes within the unit.

When there is a map on the unit, and the route follows the road on that map, the Edge will give all the directions you mention. There is even a page that displays all the cue sheet entries of all upcoming turns and distance to each.

Thank you for this info. It's better than the owner's manual.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 11:15:58 am »
For those who have not been studying trip planning software, MapSource is still current.
Here is the official response from Garmin that I just received:

Subject: Re: Support for MapSource  (KMM24591883I15977L0KM)
Date: 25 March 2012 22:54:50 EDT

Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I will be happy to help you with this.

MapSource has been discontinued, no further updates will be made.

Garmin BaseCamp is an interface designed for Garmin devices and mapping products. The software allows users to plan and manage trips, routes, tracks, and waypoints between the computer and compatible devices. 

BaseCamp has the following unique features:
   •   Displays 24K or 100K topographic maps with Digital Elevation Model (DEM) in 2D or 3D renderings with elevation profile
   •   Rotate maps to any orientation
   •   Playback feature allows simulating the routes and tracks
   •   Supports geotagged photos
   •   Easily organize data in folder format
   •   Users can view their data in Google Earth
   •   Supports all the geocache information presented on geocaching.com
   •   Prints full page color maps
BaseCamp for Windows: http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4435
BaseCamp for Mac : http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4449


With Best Regards,

Software Support Specialist
2nd Shift Software Team
Garmin International

Offline Fred Hiltz

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 12:08:01 pm »
Thanks, Rami. It's still on their products page, but this sounds like it will move to the legacy section soon.

Fred

Offline mdxix

Re: What tools does ACA use to create the GPX files?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2012, 01:13:24 pm »
adding route-point extensions does not cause trouble for receivers that cannot use them.
Here is a curious discovery: it seems as if adding empty route-point extensions causes trouble for receivers that do use them! They are responsible for fooling the Edge 705 into not calculating the route.

I loaded an old copy (circa 2005) of ACA Atlantic Coast route onto the Edge. The GPS calculated the route, navigated the road, and gave me turn-by-turn directions. A copy of the file AC01v004.gpx is at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/AC01v004.gpx.

That does not happen with the latest copy of that route. The Edge displays it in straight lines and gives cardinal directions. The distance to next turn and distance to destination are not accurate, because they are calculated over straight lines. A copy of the file AC01v007.gpx is at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/AC01v007.gpx.

Why is that? Why did the old file work, but not the new?

I found the new file has the <extensions> tag without the detailed route extensions. The Edge uses these extensions and was relying on them to provide the route details, but the details never came.

I edited the file to remove the empty extensions. I did that for just the first portion of the route A01010. Voilà. The Edge calculated the route, navigated the road, and gave me turn-by-turn directions. A copy of the file A01010.gpx is at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30524605/ACA/A01010.gpx.

I noticed that for some reason route A01030 in AC01v007.gpx has the full extensions details. The Edge was very happy to find them and navigated properly on the road.

That is, to get the ACA routes to work better with the Edge, one needs to either remove the empty extensions or fill them up with the route details.

I wonder if this same behavior happens with other recent Garmin units in the Outdoors line of products. Any experience there, say with 2011 and 2012 models such as GPSMAP 62 and eTrex 30? Do the new units rely also on route-point extensions?