Adventure Cycling Association Forum
Bicycle Travel => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Galloper on April 08, 2010, 08:48:32 am
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I recently bought a Salsa Fargo for use on an extended tour. What a big mistake! The bike was fine unloaded but as soon as I loaded it up it turned into a dangerously unstable bike, with the front wheel shimmying violently. With the guys from the bike shop, I tried every trick in the book, changing the handlebar height, varying the front to rear weight ratio, changing the load. Nothing made any difference, it was too dangerous to ride. Eventually I gave up and swapped it for a Surly LHT which was a joy to ride. The Surly, my Dawes Karakum and an elderly Claud Butler all handled the same load with ease which had the Salsa wobbling all over the road.
My advice to anyone considering buying a Salsa Fargo for full on touring is: Don't! Oh! And don't expect any response from Salsa if you do tell them of the problem.
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More details? How was it loaded? How much was it loaded with? Front bags, rear bags, trailer, etc?
Did you get the frame alignment checked? Was the head tube faced before pressing the headset? Just thinking about possible causes.
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What a disappointment. Shimmy is often caused by an asymmetrical fork, according to Calfee's article at http://www.calfeedesign.com/forksymmetry.htm .
People often say the head tube or BB shell need facing, but I think it's a normal, routine part of frame manufacturer. I know a frame builder and have watched him work, and he always did this with standard framebuilders' tools (made by Campagnolo in his case) before painting.
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I had a set of Altura Orkney 34 L panniers on the front and a set of 56's on the back with an Ortlieb bar bag and an Ortlieb tube on the rear carrier. As mentioned, this is my standard long tour set up which I've used on various other bikes without problems.
I was in the unfortunate situation of having flown in from the UK with a long tour in front of me so didn't really have the time to start exploring engineering solutions so it was very much a case of throwing it back at the supplier and swapping to a bike that worked. In any case it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure the frame is to specification and all surfaces correctly faced and prepared before shipping.
At one point, at about 10 mph, the damn thing nearly spat me off which was when I decided I had to change it for a bike that was safe and fit for purpose.
Needless to say I won't ever be buying another Salsa.
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That's why we have these forums. Thanks for your review and we're very glad you could arrange a reasonable solution. Was the swap amenable with the shop? If so, that's a good reason to mention your shop, the arrangement represents excellent customer service.
david boise ID
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I think your bike had a defect (bent or tweaked frame-not uncommon in the industry), as I know of several people who've successfully used them for travel. Your situation is the only one I've heard of.
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I bought the bike from Topanga Creek Bicycles and they were extremely helpful, I lost something on the deal but was able to get up and running on a Surly LHT the same day which is pretty good service by any standard.
As regards to the fault, yes, I agree, there was certainly a fault but whether it was a bent frame or forks I couldn't say. As to whether that is not uncommon, in my personal experience over far too many bikes :) I have never experienced a similar failing. As a keen motorcyclist I know it happens with motorbikes too and it's generally a design fault rather than a manufacturing problem and usually sorted with a steering damper.
One of my main concerns is that I've had no response from Salsa which is always a bad sign, either of disinterest or of something more deep rooted.
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I am not so sure it is a defective frame. In reading other's reviews about the Salsa Fargo (ref: threads on CrazyGuyOnABike.com), I think the Salsa Fargo is designed to only have a very light load on the front. That front rack is awfully small and the designers are trying to say something to riders.
Thank you for the heads up. It is seriously disappointing because I really wanted a Salsa Fargo after seeing one in the LBS. I hope that Salsa rectifies their front end issues on this platform because I think it has serious potential for Fun.
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Interesting.I`ve read good reviews and I know some Fargos where used on the Great Divide Race. I`ve bought many frames and only my Niner came faced from the factory. All others I had faced at a LBS. Even your LHT at the very least need the paint removed from the BB and headtube area after you got it. Salsa and Surly share the same parent company btw
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I know bike shops like to blame things on facing. I always thought it was a machinist's cop out. My guess would be that the fork legs are misaligned somehow. I guess another possibility is that the frame alloy is just not up to the task. Or maybe this specific batch of frame tubes is not up to the task.
There could be a design defect, but I am guessing a manufacturing defect.
Too bad Salsa won't stand behind their bike.
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Sorry for your pain. I just assembled a new Salsa Vaya. It has been working very well for me, but I haven't put any racks on it or tried to carry anything, but your problem did get me to break out my drop-out alignment tools and check. The fork drop-outs were off a little. Now that has stopped raining, I will try it out after work.
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One thing that often gets overlooked is that some tires have inconsistencies in the tread that'll make a fork wobble. Did you try changing out the tires by any chance?
I have seen Fargos that are loaded with LOTS of stuff and this is the first one that Ive heard had a problem. I'm not saying that there wasn't a problem - just that it seems highly unlikely that it's the frame design...
Steve
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Galloper -
I am sorry to hear about your issue with the Fargo, and I apologize for the inconvenience it caused you. However, I am curious as to whom you spoke with at Salsa about this issue. This is the first that we have heard of this particular issue. Again, I apologize if you made contact and were not responded to.
We have had a small amount of people report a shimmy with a heavier front load on the Fargo, and it typically lies with load placement. Due to the slacker head angle of the Fargo and the more "mountain" geometry, if the load is high, this is possible, but not common, as it also has to do with rider placement on the bike.
I will contact Topanga Creek today to thank them for helping you with this issue and to make sure their needs are met. If you have any additional needs, please feel free to contact me direct at tkrueger at salsacycles.com.
We stand behind our products 100%, and I feel this was just an issue of miscommunication, as we typically respond to emails or phone calls within 24 hours. Again, I am really sorry for your experience, and if there is anything I can do for you, please let me know.
Ride and Smile,
Tim, Salsa Cycles
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We have had a small amount of people report a shimmy with a heavier front load on the Fargo, and it typically lies with load placement. Due to the slacker head angle of the Fargo and the more "mountain" geometry, if the load is high, this is possible, but not common, as it also has to do with rider placement on the bike.
Note that he tried all kinds of load distributions, etc., and other bikes had no problems with the same load and rider:
With the guys from the bike shop, I tried every trick in the book, changing the handlebar height, varying the front to rear weight ratio, changing the load. Nothing made any difference; it was too dangerous to ride. Eventually I gave up and swapped it for a Surly LHT which was a joy to ride. The Surly, my Dawes Karakum, and an elderly Claud Butler all handled the same load with ease which had the Salsa wobbling all over the road.
I haven't seen one of these, but I would suspect some lack of quality control in the symmetry of the fork or something of that nature. Even if the tire is centered in the crown area, the steering tube may still be off at an angle.
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Tim, I sent an email to your company via your own web site.
As to the inconvenience, this involved hiring a U Haul truck in Alpine and driving 160 miles or whatever, each way to Topanga, then exchanging a $1500 dollar bike for an $1100 bike. Oh! and two days out of my holiday driving to and fro.
I was interested to see in your email that I am not alone in suffering this shimmy. The load at the front wasn't at what I would consider an excessive height. In fact, I used the same racks from the Salsa on the Surly without problems but I take your point about the slacker geometry.
The tops of the panniers were below the wheel rim, the rack was a low rider with a single support brace over the wheel. It's difficult to be precise but I would estimate the weight of each pannier as no more than about 8 or 9 lbs. (I've just weighed one with it's normal load and it was 6 lbs. I've added a bit to allow for the food I would be carrying.
I wanted to post a picture but the file size is too big. If you give me your email address I'll send one to you.
Now you see how much information you would have got if someone had responded to me!
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I will contact Topanga Creek today to thank them for helping you with this issue and to make sure their needs are met. If you have any additional needs, please feel free to contact me direct at tkrueger at salsacycles.com.
We stand behind our products 100%, and I feel this was just an issue of miscommunication, as we typically respond to emails or phone calls within 24 hours. Again, I am really sorry for your experience, and if there is anything I can do for you, please let me know.
Ride and Smile,
Tim, Salsa Cycles
I sure do like a company with their finger on the pulse. This impresses me greatly and certainly goes far to putting the Fargo back in the running on my list of Wants.
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Galloper -
Thank you for the information. I think the issue is that this is the first we have heard of this, I don't think we received your email. Again, I am sorry for this.
I have spoken with Chris at Topanga and it seems that you were well taken care of by this excellent shop, and I am glad that you are now happy on your Long Haul Trucker. Have a good tour!
For other tourists out there - Our Fargo does make a great touring bike, but as mentioned, it is a bit slack to be more of a "mountain" touring bike. If you desire a more traditional touring ride and are carrying a more traditional touring load of panniers and handlebar bags, please consider our Vaya model. It is similar to the Fargo, except with a geometry that is much more intended to the road and for pannier-based touring.
Finally, Galloper, thanks for bringing attention to this and letting me try to work through the issue. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me direct at tkrueger at salsacycles.com.
Ride and Smile,
Tim, Salsa Cycles
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Or just buy a Surly and eliminate the risk of another dodgy Salsa!
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All I know is everything that I have Salsa, is good stuff.
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I'm happy for you Moondoggy, all I can say is that when the Fargo was unladen, it was a very nice bike, loaded up it was an evil handling monstrosity.
I'm planning some more lightly loaded tours which will have a mixture of off road for later in the year and for that, it might well have worked well, as it is my elderly Claud Butler will be roving the byways of France with me. :)
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Huge props to Tim@Salsa.
Seems that no matter what a company does, some people will never be satisfied. They'll just continue to bash whomever they can.
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Well, so far, all Salsa has done is market a bike as a go anywhere tourer which can't safely carry a set of panniers on the front, which Tim has as good as admitted. Had I known that at the outset, I would have looked elsewhere
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Following much emailing between Tim from Salsa and myself, I thought an update in order. As we know from one of Tim’s earlier postings, there is a shimmy problem with some Fargos. Tim now thinks mine was defective and says that if I had still owned the bike, Salsa would have replaced it.
Which rather reminds me of the story told by a friend of mine who works for a large agricultural supplier. A farmer contacted him asking for a price for a certain type of fertilizer, my friend told him it was £35 a tonne. The farmer said “Ah, but James’ price is £28 a tonne. My friend told him that he couldn’t match that price and that he’d have to recommend that he went to James. At which point the farmer, somewhat red faced, admitted that James didn’t actually have any. As my friend said later, “It’s easy to be cheap when you’ve nowt to sell!”
For the benefit of those who think I’m just whinging, buying a defective Salsa has left me out of pocket by over $800, made up of the difference in price between the two bikes and the cost of hiring a van return the wobbly Fargo, not to mention the two days spent enjoying the freeways of Socal J
If nothing else, I now know how all those Toyota owners feel!
What goes around comes around.
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As an engineer, I am intimately aware that 100% quality control is a near impossibility. The fact of it is: nobody wants to pay the price of 100% defect-free merchandise.
It stinks that you had to run hither and thither because of a defective frame. That running around had nothing to do with Salsa. Those circumstances existed outside of the defective frame. If your Surly was defective, you would still have been running around. You were the cause of sitting in SoCal traffic, not Salsa.
Now, you said Salsa ignored your initial requests for help. I'll take you at face value there and scream with you "Total Weak Sauce!" But Tim reached out to you, reached out to us, and has sworn that Salsa stands behind their goods. I'll also take that at face value until proven otherwise.
I empathize that you are waxing vitriolic on the topic, but Salsa really seems to be going the extra mile here.
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We will never know what went on inside the Salsa company. A defect here and there is unavoidable. Even aerospace and military suppliers get defects in spite of the extreme measures to eliminate them. (I'm an engineer too.) It does sound like there is a much greater chance of having this problem with this bike than others though. I worked at a company in the 80's and 90's where the conditions the owner set up made for a lot of problems both in quality and customer service, but if someone complained publicly like this, he suddenly became Mr. Professional Caring and said "we stand behind our products" (which was hardly the truth). Again, I have no idea if this is what went on at Salsa, but this topic will stick in a lot of people's minds and tend to keep them from buying Salsas, or at least Salsa Fargos. I've read on other topics many times over the years where someone wrote, "I have one and have never had any trouble with it," implying that the problem is you and not the product. My response however is that that just means the failure rate is not 100%, which is not very useful information.
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Wayne, I totally agree with you about quality control, I've spent many years telling people that all quality control does is pick up a problem after it's happened. I don't know whether a frame or jig check would have picked up the problem as the bike rode fine until fully laden.
As to vitriolic, my dear chap, I'm only mildly grumpy. If I was vitriolic, as an ex Sergeant Major in an Armoured Regiment, when I get vitriolic you will most assureadly know :)
As to Salsa going the extra mile, from my perspective they've written a few emails and posted a few messages. Not much mileage there, I'm afraid.
Anyway, I've made my point of view known and have brought the problem out into the open. Hopefully Salsa and their customers will all benefit from this.
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'Kind of obvious to me from reading this, but nobody else has said it yet ... starting a major tour with a brand new bike is not the best idea.
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I agree, but flying in from the UK and on a 90 day tourist visa, I didn't really have an option. I did consider bringing a bike from the UK but decided to treat myself to a bike which, by all accounts and from the tests I'd read, should have been perfect for the job.
Ah well, gelernt ist gelernt, as the Germans say. At least now I know to stay well away from Salsa. The Surly was a pleasure to ride from the outset.
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As you might deduce from my login name, I also own a Fargo. I had no prior experience with racks and panniers on my Fargo until today, when I did an 82 mile loaded test ride to check out my new Surly "Nice" front & rear racks and Ortlieb panniers prior to a trip next month. Having read about your handling problems, I was somewhat wary as to what to expect on my ride, which had many fast downhills (40 mph) that would bring out any handling issues, but I didn't experience any problems at all. It's unfortunate that you had such a bad experience with the Fargo, because it's a very versatile bike. If I could only keep one bike in my garage, it would be the Fargo.
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Glad to hear your bike's a good 'un. As Tim from Salsa has said, they have had reports of shimmying and mine was certainly defective It remains unclear as to the cause.
I don't actually know what happened to mine after I traded it back at Topanga, I think I'll follow that up to see if Salsa took it back and if so what was the result of their investigation.
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I feel really badly about your experience, but I don't want to dissuade anyone who might be reading this from getting a Fargo. I have a garage full of really, really nice bikes (5.5, 9.9, 720, Blue Ridge, etc.) and all I ever ride anymore is the Fargo. It's really a fantastic, versatile, comfortable thing.
I have the front and rear Nice Racks on it, plus the cable tie-on baskets from Rivbike, and routinely load up the bike willi-nilli with all kinds of crap (firewood, cases of beer, flats of pansies) and it handles just fine at ~25mph.
That said, the idea that you'd have really big wheels, really big tires, a frame made in some cancer inducing sweatshop in Taiwan, and the panniers would shake on a 40 mph downhill isn't a total suprise. The Fargo is really a gravel road and gravel trail bike - it's not a loaded touring bike. If you're planning bombing down mountain switchbacks with loaded front panniers, you want something like a Co-motion Americano, with smaller wheels, made in USA, not a Fargo. Or really, you want a B.O.B. trailer. (The Fargo and the B.O.B. carry a tree just fine, by the way).
PS - please come back to the U.S.A on another trip. We'd love to have you, we need the economic boost.
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(The Fargo and the B.O.B. carry a tree just fine, by the way).
This is quite O.T., but if you really want to carry big loads with a bike, see bikesatwork.com .
(http://www.bikesatwork.com/bicycle-delivery-service/delivering-mattress-and-box-spring.jpg)
(Yes, that really is a double-bed mattress and box spring,)
(http://www.bikesatwork.com/bicycle-delivery-service/new-refrigerator.jpg)
(and that really is a refrigerator.)
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The problem, Disgruntled, was that the shakes came in at walking speed, then about 10mph and again about 18 mph. Pretty much covered the whole spectrum.
I chose the Fargo because I wasn't sure what road surfaces I was going to encounter and also because, back here in the UK, I ride a lot of gravel roads and so thought it would be a good bet for future use as well as the main trip.
And, unfortunately, I was unwise enough to believe Salsa's web site which tout it as a go anywhere bike. From what most people are saying on here, perhaps they should revise that to "May shimmy when loaded, not suitable for road based touring"
I will admit, I'm getting quite keen on the idea of a bob yak for touring, I'm hoping to do some miles around the south of France next month and the trailer seems really versatile.
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Shimmying is a common problem with light touring bikes. The Salsa Fargo is a light touring bike. They may imply with advertising that you can round trip it to Tierra del Fuego, but don't count on it. That is why some of us have spent the big bucks for a heavy touring bike. They don't shimmy.
The specification for a light touring bike is credit card touring. Are you mad yet? We all should be angry.
Most light touring bikes sold never even see panniers, so I have some sympathy for the bike companies. I also think you should not have to invest in a $5000 Co-Motion to get a beefy enough frame.
The only way you can be confident about a light touring bike is to take it for a test ride with panniers that have real stuff in them. You are lucky that you did not buy the bike for a trip that you were going to do in 6 months. But you should be able to read specs that indicate if the frame would flex and shimmy. And be able to work with a LBS that has a clue.
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I take your point, Paddleboy, I guess it is a light touring bike as in designed for light load touring (and not in weight as it's a pretty heavy ol thing). You're also absolutely correct about the need for a heavy duty tourer although I have to say that neither my Dawes or Claud Butler shimmy under any load or at any speed. The former cost about $800 and the latter about $400 so I think buying from a company that understands touring is the key.
I suppose the thing that drives us all wild at some point is what the law refers to as Advertisers Puff. No really, that's what they call it (at least here in the UK) meaning that one should expect somewhat exaggerated claims from sellers.
In the UK we have legislation called the "Trade Descriptions Act" which states that goods should be fit for the purpose for which they are sold so if you advertise as bike as a go anywhere tourer, it has to be able to do that otherwise there can be some fairly draconian penalties. Not sure if that sort of legislation is on the statute books in California.
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I contacted Tim at Salsa to enquire what had happened about the Fargo and if they had brought it back in house for investigation.
He replied that "it had been taken care of" which sounds a bit ominous.
I see they've changed the website however and it's now sold as a mountain bike for off road touring.
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Shimmying is a common problem with light touring bikes. The Salsa Fargo is a light touring bike. They may imply with advertising that you can round trip it to Tierra del Fuego, but don't count on it. That is why some of us have spent the big bucks for a heavy touring bike. They don't shimmy.
The specification for a light touring bike is credit card touring. Are you mad yet? We all should be angry.
Most light touring bikes sold never even see panniers, so I have some sympathy for the bike companies. I also think you should not have to invest in a $5000 Co-Motion to get a beefy enough frame.
The only way you can be confident about a light touring bike is to take it for a test ride with panniers that have real stuff in them. You are lucky that you did not buy the bike for a trip that you were going to do in 6 months. But you should be able to read specs that indicate if the frame would flex and shimmy. And be able to work with a LBS that has a clue.
Being new I was wondering what frame options are considered real fully loaded heavy touring chioces
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Unfortunately, heavy touring bikes are really expensive because they tend to be semi-custom or custom. I don't think there is a stock heavy touring bike, and you won't find one from Trek or Cannodale, or any of the other usual suspects. I think the cheapest and closest to a stock bike would be a Bruce Gordon. Your new suspects are Rivendell, Co-Motion, Bruce Gordon, Beckman, and Waterford. There are probably others. Besides beefed up frames, you might also see tandem rear. Once the frame is beefed up, the next weak link is the wheels. One way to make the wheels stronger is go with a non-dished wheel. These are stock on better tandems, hence the phrase tandem rear.
I have a Waterford Adventure Cycle. These are custom frame sets that your local dealer builds up for you. I benefit from having a custom frame, but I don't feel like I require a custom frame. It gave me a chance to get some features I wanted, like the tandem rear, a drag brake, pump mounts, and kick stand mount plate.
I don't know why the big guys can just sell a beefed up frame. A normal steel frame is on the order of 4 pounds. My Waterford's beefed up steel frame is less than a pound heavier than that. Blame it on the same mentality that says a 12MP camera with crappy lenses is a better camera than a 6MP camera with OK lenses.
My Waterford is overkill for most of the riding I do. I needed the beefed up frame, but I did not need the tandem wheel set (but don't tell my wife).
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One way to make the wheels stronger is go with a non-dished wheel. These are stock on better tandems, hence the phrase tandem rear.
Using an off-center (OC) rim, you can get rid of almost all the dishing, even with a standard hub. The spoke holes way to the left of center on the rim, making it non-symmetric, like this Velocity Aerohead OC:
(http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/rims/aero_head_rim_oc.gif) (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/rims/aerohead_oc_dia.gif)
Tandem rear wheels require a much wider dropout spacing than single bikes though. The wider spacing allows putting the flanges farther apart and getting a better spoke bracing angle, which has a dramatic impact on the strength of the wheel. If the bike has 145mm or 160mm rear dropout spacing, you can put a real tandem wheel in it. Single (ie, non-tandem) road bikes normally have 130mm dropout spacing.
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On your list of trying things, I noticed that you did not list changing out the front fork, I put a salsa for on my fisher while I was getting the rock shock rebuilt. It made the bike shake (in a frightening manner) on really fast road downhills.
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Trying a new fork wasn't really an option as I was actually on the road. If I'd lived in the area, that would have been an option but would have been at the discretion of the bike shop and Salsa.
If I'd been able to afford the time and the expense of waiting, it would have been worth a try but I was very time limited by my tourist visa which is a standard 90 day and my planning for the trip was fairly close to that limit.
Don't want to upset the Immigration guys - they have guns!
I passed through one of their check points in Arizona and must say they were very friendly, even asked if I needed some more water.
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Came across this topic and felt compelled to balance Galloper's alarmist posts.
I've owned a Salsa Fargo for about three weeks now, and I couldn't be happier. Ok, maybe a little... it's not a perfect bike, but for the price it's fantastic. In this time I've put more than 500 miles on it, with a good mix of long-ish mixed trail and road rides and plenty of commuting, hauling groceries, etc.
Absolutely the only complaint I have about the bike is that the quality of the wheel building is rather poor. But that doesn't come as a surprise and is par for the course for machine wheel built wheels and in this price range.
This past holiday weekend I went on a mini-tour that was about 50% trail with lots of killer climbs, riding through creeks and bombing down washed out fire roads -- a big loop through Henry Coe State Park in California, for those of you who know it. In terms of terrain this little test ride is sort of on the extreme end of what I plan to do with the bike, which is mixed touring with plenty of back roads exploring. The bike handled and performed beautifully and I didn't have a single problem.
Now I admit, I haven't yet got the front rack on the bike, so I was touring only with an overloaded handlebar bag and two rear panniers. Also, not much gear as it was only three days.
Normally in this configuration -- with weight high on the bar and mostly in the rear, I'd expect some squirelliness. But this is an extremely stable bike that handles beautifully on road and off. I'm very keen to get panniers on the front, but there is nothing to suggest to me that the handling would be anything less than solid. If I experienced shimmy I'd immediately reconfigure my load and if that didn't help start checking frame alignment and what not. Of course I'd have already considered if the frame was simply too small for me.
I would not call this a light touring bike. In fact that's a pretty ridiculous comment. A Trek 520 is a light touring bike, and feels like a wet noodle compared to the Fargo. And any bike can shimmy and/or be dangerous if it's not loaded in a way that is right for that bike. To just say "oh, I had these same racks on another bike no problems" is ignoring the very obvious: every bike is different and racks and the load will ride differently on every frame. Just as importantly you will ride differently on every bike.
I think it's a pity that one person's bad experience would cast a great bike in such a negative light without considering that there are many happy Fargo owners who have nothing but good things to say about the bike or Salsa. It's not really fair. And personally I'm impressed with the way Salsa employees represent themselves in forums and have been responsive to questions and concerns. Ever talk to Bruce Gordon? How about Grant Petersen? You'd spent twice as much or more for a bike that's maybe 30% better, but with half the level of personal commitment from the manufacturer.
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Again ericb, as has been stated before, the fact that fortunately yours is fine does not mean that there's not a problem with inconsistency in the manufacture. Clearly quite a few people have had the problem. To say yours is perfect just means the failure rate is not 100%. That's not very useful information. Hopefully Salsa will figure out whateer the problem is and fix it so everyone's experience is as good as yours.
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I'm glad we are in agreement that the failure rate is not 100% I've no doubt the success rate is not 100% either. No manufacturer has perfect quality control, and to be frank, at this price point I don't expect perfection, particularly in a relatively new model. Frame alignment? Have you checked many other bikes lately? It's shocking how many aren't perfect.
My point boils down to this: calling the Fargo "Lemon of the Year" is alarmist and unfair.
Clearly quite a few people have had the problem.
Really? Can you count them? I read this whole thread twice. I read dozens of other threads on half a dozen forums before taking the plunge myself and the worst I heard about was some problems with the alignment of the disc brake tab in the 2008 or 2009 model, which was easily corrected and addressed by Salsa.
If you are citing second-hand info about threads on crazyguyonabike.com, be aware that that is one person (Neil). He experiences shimmy on every bike he buys. I have no idea why and I'm not saying it's bogus, but that discussion did not deter me from buying the Fargo. I know from long experience that type of rack, how you load panniers, and half a dozen other factors can have a very large impact on handling. It is this point that Tim from Salsa essentially makes. You can't load a bike willy nilly and expect it to behave 100% of the time. Every bike has it's own load-handling characteristics. If you can't work within those, then clearly that bike is not for you. That doesn't make it a lemon.
My Trek 520 is borderline dangerous with a heavy and high load on a fast bumpy descent if I don't load the front at least 60-70% (and to some extent even if I do). But I'm not saying it's a lemon, I'm just saying I have to pay attention to how I put the weight on it. Same as any bike.
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My Fargo has taken a beating so far. It's the XT model in XXL. I'm 6'5'' and 200 and even fully loaded it's amazing in the dirt and on the road.
I'll let you know if it makes it to Tierra Del Fuego.
Larry
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It's still riding Perfect 100 lbs plus my frame and it's still totally fine.
And in my exp., Salsa has always been a great company to deal with. Fantastic folks down there who actually get dirty.
Larry
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Salsa and Surly are the same company: QBP. They're out of Minnisota and your LHT was made at the same factory in Taiwan as your Fargo. And to top it off they're the largest bicycle accessory/component wholesaler in the USA, so you can bet that everything else you bought from that LBS came from them too.
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Salsa and Surly are [owned by] the same company: QBP.
true
They're out of Minnisota and your LHT was made at the same factory in Taiwan as your Fargo.
That's irrelevant to the quality though. The same factories in Taiwan make outstanding frames on one line and total junk on another line right next to it, under the same roof, because they make them to the spec.s and cost constraints of the companies that buy the frames.
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Salsa and Surly are not separate companies "owned" by QBP, they are QBP brands. Like Doritos and Lays are brands of Frito Lay. And given that the Fargo and LHT are almost the exact same price, I'm betting there isn't any different "cost constraint" put on by QBP to the manufacturer. Chances are he just got a rare bad frame, or there was nothing wrong with it and he's just an idiot. Either way the irony is in his "Salsa sucks and the company sucks and my Surly is just great".
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As a Brit I have to admit I wasn't aware of the fact that Surly and Salsa are owned by the same company. I am simply comparing the two different bikes.
I think it's rather sad that Duh has thought it necessary to drop to personal abuse by insinuating I'm an idiot. I'm actually someone with over 20 years of manufacturing and engineering experience.
It is likely I got a bad frame, these things do happen but I found it rather worrying that Tim from Salsa made the comment that there have been reports of shimmying. This seems to indicate a design fault which I suspect was exacerbated in the case of my particular bike.
There is a fair difference in price between the Fargo and LHT, $1500 compared to $1100. Both bikes, istr, run XT and, in general are well equipped, the difference being in the more heavy duty aspect of the Fargo, an altogether beefier machine.
What can I say, I made my comments based on personal experience and stand by them. I have, over the years ridden a fair few bikes and have never encountered a similar problem. The Salsa was, without doubt the worst bike I ever rode. In comparison the Surly was and is a delight to ride.
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Worst bike for you. You keep saying "oh maybe it was defective" while calling it a lemon and the "worst bike" you've ever ridden. These two things don't reconcile. I mean, ok, we get it... you had a bad experience with the bike. But you are seriously the only person I've ever heard of to say these things, while most other owners rave about it. Also doesn't reconcile.
Incidentally, I now have a Surly Nice Rack on the front of my Fargo and the thing is even more stable with a load up front. About to head off for a 2 month tour.
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Fair enough Ericb, let me be more precise. The bike was defective. It was the only bike I have ridden in 50 years of cycling that was too dangerous to ride. Tim at Salsa has acknowledged that there are reports of these bikes shimmying.
Anyway, I'm happy that you are pleased with your bike, have a great tour.
May the sun be always on your face and the wind at your back :)
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I recently bought a Fargo and a defective fork , the brake mounts were off so the brake bolts would hit the disc on the rim. What a pain . I called salsa and they told me to put in a vice and bend it out, that's what they would do if I sent it back to them. So that's what the LBS did. It bent real easy. Factory issues occure in the massed produced world. I'm off to test it before the GDMBT. thanks for the info all..
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There can be more than one right answer in any situation.
I own both the the SalsaFargo and the LHT. I use them both for loaded - fully loaded touring. Respectfully, I don't buy the idea that only custom built touring bikes are sturdy enough for touring. The net is full of accounts of men that have went on long distance tours on super cheapo $400.00 bikes....and had fun!
I'm up front and 100% honest - I've not ever had the Fargo shimmy or wobble on me. I have had the LHT shimmy, I also have a Fuji that will shimmy as well. It's not fun. The half dozen times the LHT has shimmied it was becuase I loaded the bike incorrectly.
My last tour on the Fargo was Vancouver BC to Alberta. Fully loaded, the Fargo is the most comfortable touring bike of the four I now own. If we were neighbors I'd let you ride mine - so you could see that Your answer does not fit every equation.
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I used to tour on a Bianchi Volpe. When I first got it, the bike was fine for touring. Later after I put on 30 lbs, the bike began to shimmy. Nothing I did, and I tried lots of things, fixed the shimmy. For me, shimmy meant that the bike flexed left to right and front to back as I rode it. Yes, you could ride it that way. Yes, I found it disturbing to ride. A 30 lb weight gain should not have made that kind of difference in the ride quality.
The Volpe frame was made from Reynolds 520 alloy, which if memory served me right, is designed for light applications. So I am left to believe that touring bikes should never be made out of 520/525 alloy. 520's and LHT's are made from generic chromoly tubing, so cannot comment on the properties of their tube sets. That is why whenever the question comes up about what kind of bike should be purchased, I steer them to a Jamis Aurora Elite with its stiffer Reynolds 631 frame. The Elite looks good on paper, but I don't know anyone that has actually ridden one.
I think the real question becomes why can some people tour with a $1000 bicycle just fine, and why do these same bicycles shimmy for other riders.
My belief is that things are just more complicated. If you are 5'-3" and weight 135 lbs you can ride anything. Once you get bigger, or heavier, or have other issues like a noisy upper body, it just gets more difficult to have a shimmy free ride. The bike components and wheels of a $1000 bike are certainly up to the task--I don't know why frames are the problem. The same components and wheels might fail on an epic around the world trip, but they will get you coast to coast in the US of A.
Could it be that the introduction of aluminum frames caused the design of steel frames to be perverted in an effort to take weight out? Could it be that it is just too expensive to make steel stiff enough for a touring bike? Do you need to add super exotic stuff? Why can you just make the tubing diameter bigger? Your more of a materials scientist that I will ever be, whitierrider, what is your take?
All I know is that you hear a lot about cheaper bikes shimmying. I know a 520 owner, and his bike shimmys. I have read about LHT that shimmy. I have even heard about Bruce Gordon's shimmying, and that is not a cheap bike.
I know that I overreacted to my Volpe's shimmy by buying one of those really expensive custom bikes that mrpincher was poo-pooing. My $5000 Waterford is stiff. I have also deliberately flexed it, and she quickly dampens the flex. I don't know what Waterford did to my frame that cannot be done for little or no added expense to a pedestrian steel frame. Now for $5000 I got to do some other really cool stuff like non-dished tandem wheels and a drag brake, but I only really needed a better frame.
If my Volpe's frame had been stiffer, I would have kept riding it. The fit was good, the components were good enough, and the bike was great to ride unloaded.
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I don't know why frames are the problem. [...] You're more of a materials scientist that I will ever be, whitierrider, what is your take?
Actually I'm an electronics engineer, a circuit designer, and I can tell you that oscillations in circuits, and probably mechanical things too, can sometimes be very difficult to track down. The unwanted signal is everywhere, making it hard to see what initiates it. You could have a good, solid design, and yet a hidden manufacturing defect means there's an unknown deviation from the design-- so you can't really even model it mathematically to figure it out.
Although frame stiffness (or lack of it) will affect the wobble (or shimmy) behavior (for example by changing the rate of the shimmy or the road speed at which it starts), I doubt that great frame stiffness is necessary for preventing it. When I worked in a bike shop in the 70's and test rode most bikes I fixed, I rode some awfully mushy bikes that didn't wobble. Granted, I probably didn't get them over 20mph, or put racks on them and load them up either; but more recently I and one of our sons have ridden some pretty mushy rear wheels too, with no shimmy at any speed. I have only a vague understanding of why certain loading on my own bikes has tended to produce minor shimmies, even at low climbing speeds. The best explanation I know of online is Calfee's writeup on fork asymmetry here (http://www.calfeedesign.com/forksymmetry.htm). Fork asymmetry is not the only possible cause, but it could be that just replacing the fork on that Salsa would have eliminated the problem.
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I am 6 ft. 3 in. and 260 lbs. (Down from 275 and workin' on it.) I ride a Bianchi Volpe and a Novara Safari, fully loaded, and sometimes with a BoB trailer. I can honestly say the only time either of them has every shimmied. it was my fault. I stopped, repacked/balanced the load, and the problem was resolved. I have a friend who works down at QBP/Surly/Salsa who thinks I would really love the Fargo. I met a couple touring last week, and she couldn't say enough good things about her LHT. They are both excellent bikes, but until I have a reason to replace one or the other of my touring rides, I'll keep riding what I've got.
(http://www.twowheeledexplorer.org/JuneTrav1.jpg)
What can I say? I like them both!
Ride safe,
Hans
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Greetings All:
I've just purchased a Salsa Fargo specifically for a loaded tour down the Alaska Hwy from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory to my home in Vancouver, BC. I did read this series of reports, and thought that it was a bit overstated, and that Galloper was overestimating the shimmy. I did a test ride of the bike before purchase with no load, and it was stellar. I even used it around my home with a partial load, and although there was some shimmy, I thought it not excessive and a result of poor packing on my part. Now, sadly, I have to admit that 500 km into this tour, I'm ready to try just about anything to get rid of the brutal wobble and shimmy that this bike is generating when fully loaded. I have the XXL frame (I'm 6'5" and weigh 220 lbs), and have it loaded with about 75 lbs of gear (front and rear panniers, handlebar bag, and a tent on the rear rack - Surly "Nice" racks BTW) and like Galloper, have nothing but problems with shimmy - at all speeds that I've been bold enough to try. And yes, I admit my error in not fully testing the bike before undertaking this tour.
I've tried changing the front to rear loading ratio, moved the panniers closer to the BB (as close as the racks and my heels will allow) and have all of the heavy items in the very bottom of the panniers. I've also tried putting the heavy items closest to the frame. I've even used bungee cords to try and pull the panniers closer to the centre line of the frame, thinking that it is the mounting mechanism of the pannier that might be contributing to this. Nothing seems to work. Pushing hard on the handlebar while peddling in a bit of a staccato fashion seems to break the rhythm of the shimmy, but is slowly grinding me down...
I'm no stranger to loaded touring, and the load that I described is what I normally do tours with. To date, I have never experienced this sort of problem with the bikes I use - either touring specific bikes (an old 80's era Miyata and a similar vintage Nishiki) or the old non-suspension Trek 820 mountain bike that I was going to use. I'm just getting set to send a similar message to Salsa now, and will keep you posted on how that turns out.
Right now, I would suggest that if you are thinking about buying this bike for a loaded tour, check it out thoroughly. Load it up if you can. I know that that sounds a bit over the top, as I suspect that there are very few if any bike shops that will accommodate that request, but if you can, do it. It will save you the headache that I am now living with.
Good luck if you purchase the Fargo.
johnnyo
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Johnyo, your report was deja vu! I had exactly the same symptoms and tried pretty much all your attempted remedies. In the same circumstances, I wound up hiring a van and driving the Salsa back to the dealer. Can I suggest you contact Tim at Salsa and see if there's some on the road solution they can offer.
Tim, from Salsa, if you're still monitoring this thread, I'd suggest you have a serious and developing problem!
Thank you Whittierider and paddleboy17 for some fascinating comments. The subject of shimmying is one that I think, will be ongoing. In fairness to the manufacturers, and as you've commented, these sorts of problems can be very difficult to track down.
I'm put in mind of the same sort of thing which happened with motorcycles. Frame development has pretty much been the answer and I think your comments on frame material are key! Interestingly, the motorcycle industry found that they had gone too far on stiffness and are now building in some flex!
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Greetings All:
I've just purchased a Salsa Fargo specifically for a loaded tour down the Alaska Hwy from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory to my home in Vancouver, BC. I did read this series of reports, and thought that it was a bit overstated, and that Galloper was overestimating the shimmy. I did a test ride of the bike before purchase with no load, and it was stellar. I even used it around my home with a partial load, and although there was some shimmy, I thought it not excessive and a result of poor packing on my part. Now, sadly, I have to admit that 500 km into this tour, I'm ready to try just about anything to get rid of the brutal wobble and shimmy that this bike is generating when fully loaded. I have the XXL frame (I'm 6'5" and weigh 220 lbs), and have it loaded with about 75 lbs of gear (front and rear panniers, handlebar bag, and a tent on the rear rack - Surly "Nice" racks BTW) and like Galloper, have nothing but problems with shimmy - at all speeds that I've been bold enough to try. And yes, I admit my error in not fully testing the bike before undertaking this tour.
I've tried changing the front to rear loading ratio, moved the panniers closer to the BB (as close as the racks and my heels will allow) and have all of the heavy items in the very bottom of the panniers. I've also tried putting the heavy items closest to the frame. I've even used bungee cords to try and pull the panniers closer to the centre line of the frame, thinking that it is the mounting mechanism of the pannier that might be contributing to this. Nothing seems to work. Pushing hard on the handlebar while peddling in a bit of a staccato fashion seems to break the rhythm of the shimmy, but is slowly grinding me down...
I'm no stranger to loaded touring, and the load that I described is what I normally do tours with. To date, I have never experienced this sort of problem with the bikes I use - either touring specific bikes (an old 80's era Miyata and a similar vintage Nishiki) or the old non-suspension Trek 820 mountain bike that I was going to use. I'm just getting set to send a similar message to Salsa now, and will keep you posted on how that turns out.
Right now, I would suggest that if you are thinking about buying this bike for a loaded tour, check it out thoroughly. Load it up if you can. I know that that sounds a bit over the top, as I suspect that there are very few if any bike shops that will accommodate that request, but if you can, do it. It will save you the headache that I am now living with.
Good luck if you purchase the Fargo.
johnnyo
John, Thanks for writing in. I received your email today, and I replied with my personal cell phone. We will do whatever we can to help you out, so give me a ring and lets figure it out.
Tim, Salsa Cycles
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Hmm! This is all getting rather serious. Looking back over the posts there are 5 Fargo owners who are happy with their bikes and two, Johnnyo and myself, who have had major handling problems. Add in a couple of defective forks and it's all starting to look rather dodgy.
I don't know how many Fargos Salsa produce and sell each year but with 2 out of 5 experiencing problems, that's about a 40% failure rate. In terms of product quality that's disastrous!
I think Salsa now need to get to the bottom of this fairly quickly before someone gets spat off in front of an 18 wheeler.
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This sounds like a high school math problem. I just retired from 30 years teaching same. If there are 5 happy riders and 2 with problems, then there are 2 out of 7 with problems, so more like 28-29% with problems, not 40%. Still not good, but better!
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An extra reason to take shimmy seriously (it was deadly in this one):
http://archive.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0915/local/stories/01local.htm
It appears she didn't know about clamping the top tube between her knees though.
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Johnsoddsw, you got me. I was thinking more of the forks and the defects but my typing fingers ran away with me. To make it even worse, as soon as I posted I thought 40%? Oops! OK, the virtual beers are on me. Pint of Theakston's Old Peculiar all round is it?
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An extra reason to take shimmy seriously (it was deadly in this one):
It appears she didn't know about clamping the top tube between her knees though.
It also sounds like her brakes failed. I keep thinking that the disc brakes on the Safari were/are a very good idea, even if it was a royal pain to find a front rack that worked with them. In a failure scenario like that, aren't motorcyclists taught to lay the bike down?
Proceeding on...
Hans
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It also sounds like her brakes failed.
I re-read the article, and all indications are that there was nothing wrong with her brakes. I have however read that when a shimmy starts up, applying the front brake (any kind) can sometimes make it worse. In any case, there's no chance that both brakes would have failed at once.
As for rim brakes, the only problem there is not a lack of braking (our tandem's inexpensive rim brakes can lock up even the front tire on pavement, wet or dry, with only one finger on the lever) but that excessive rim heating raises the pressure too much in the tires, and they can blow. The solution, if you have only rim brakes and think it may be a problem on a descent you're about to do, is to let some air out first, so the pressure increase from the heat does not present the danger. Re-inflate after you reach the bottom and the rims have cooled.
In a failure scenario like that, aren't motorcyclists taught to lay the bike down?
I don't know, but motorcycles can brake with the engine too, unlike non-fixed-gear bikes.
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As a motorcyclist of many year, yes, the idea is that you drop the bike on it's side and let it go. The problem is that there's a natural tendency to hand on as long as you're upright.
I'm a bit ambivalent about disc brakes on cycles. Like whittierider, I find rim brakes more than powerful enough. They also seem to offer better modulation than disks. I have to be quite careful on my mountain bike not to get over enthusiastic with the brakes as they're much more powerful. Having said that, I found the disk brakes on the Fargo excellent and well modulated.
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I have the little brother to the Fargo, the Vaya with Avid BB7 mechanical discs. I have not noticed any shimmying even when flying downhill at 45mph (coming down off Mt Utsayantha in Stamford, NY), although at the time I did not have any racks on it and was just out riding the Catskill Scenic trail and decided to take this little detour in Stamford. The disc brakes are very strong but I didn't feel too concerned about emergency braking, but like all things new, I am trying to learn and get more familiar with discs as this is my first bike with disc brakes.
Jay
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Could it be that the introduction of aluminum frames caused the design of steel frames to be perverted in an effort to take weight out? Could it be that it is just too expensive to make steel stiff enough for a touring bike? Do you need to add super exotic stuff? Why can you just make the tubing diameter bigger? Your more of a materials scientist that I will ever be, whitierrider, what is your take?
As someone with a degree in acoustics, I can answer this. Without diving headlong into math, shimmy on a bicycle is a function of resonance (recall the failed Tacoma Narrows Bridge?). The rider reaches a magical combination of speed, damping, and wheel and frame oscillations. Specifically, the headtube begans to rotate around the contact patch of the front wheel because of elasticity in the toptube and downtube. Shimmy always occurs at specific speeds.
All objects and systems have resonance. The key is to design the system so that modes of resonation are outside of any conceivable parameters. You may have experienced similar engineering in audio speakers: concrete or MDF or some other material that places the resonance frequency of the system way outside the realm of normal operation.
Handling shimmy is a matter of knowing what to do. Imagine just one line, reaching between the saddle and headset. With shimmy, the string vibrates. Clamping the handlebars locks in the endpoints of the system, enabling it to vibrate better (imagine a tightened string, as opposed to a loose one). Clamping the top tube between the legs adds another node to the vibrating string, most likely radically changing the resonance frequency and placing the resonance outside the current available modes. Lifting off the saddle lengthens the string also changes the resonance frequency radically.
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As a motorcyclist of many year, yes, the idea is that you drop the bike on it's side and let it go. The problem is that there's a natural tendency to hand on as long as you're upright.
That is very antiquated advice. No motorcycle safety riding course suggests laying down the motorcycle in a panic situation because as soon as the bike is down, the outcome is down to dumb luck and you have zero control over the dynamics. Rubber and brakes stop the bike very well. Chrome and plastic do not.
There are times that riders will dump and advanced courses teach how to bail safely and how to identify that a fall is inevitable. Done correctly, the rider will often end up standing and still holding the bike in a manner that allows it to still be controlled.
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Clamping the top tube between the legs adds another node to the vibrating string, most likely radically changing the resonance frequency and placing the resonance outside the current available modes.
Unlike using a finger to press a string down on the fingerboard or an instrument, or even touching the string at the right place to get harmonics, I'd say clamping the top tube between your legs is a damper. It doesn't just change the characteristic impedance or reflect energy, it absorbs it and does not give it back, like shock absorbers in a car which don't just change a resonance to keep the wheel from bouncing, but actually turn the energy into heat.
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Unlike using a finger to press a string down on the fingerboard or an instrument, or even touching the string at the right place to get harmonics, I'd say clamping the top tube between your legs is a damper. It doesn't just change the characteristic impedance or reflect energy, it absorbs it and does not give it back, like shock absorbers in a car which don't just change a resonance to keep the wheel from bouncing, but actually turn the energy into heat.
No, the vibration is still there; the frequency is simply shifted outside of the resonance of the system. There is a small damping effect from skin, fat, and muscle, but all that energy was not suddenly sunk by the legs. This is exactly like pressing an already vibrating string into the fingerboard (or more precisely, moving one's finger along a fretless fingerboard). The frequency has now moved outside of sustaining excitation period of the top tube and downtube. If one could clamp the legs at an exact harmonic point, the shimmy would continue unabated. This would be exactly the same as touching a vibrating string at its precise midpoint. It keeps vibrating despite the small damping effect of the fingerpad.
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I think high-speed close-up photography during a shimmy would show that the top tube and down tube have virtually no flex compared to that at the headset which is purposely intended to be a hinge. The shimmy is mainly that the headset is rotating back and forth at about 5Hz. Pressing your finger down on a string produces a discontinuity in the characteristic impedance of the transmission medium, causing a reflection of the wave. The legs against the tube OTOH reflect virtually nothing. They are inelastic, giving a very high return loss, acting more as an attenuator, absorbing the energy like the deep wedges or pyramids made of open-cell foam, fiberglass, etc. for the inside surfaces of an anechoic chamber by Soundcoat, Azonic, Foam Factory, Auralex, and other companies you're probably familiar with. The energy is turned into heat.
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On the matter of clamping your knees on the top tube, that had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the Fargo, it was one of the many things I tried. The interesting thing was how the shimmying came in at various speeds. Roughly speaking, the first band was 4 -7 mph, the second 11 to 14 and the third 18 to 22. I spent a lot of effort trying to stay in the non-vibrating areas.
On the subject of laying the bike down, this was a technique I was made aware of on both a Police Advanced course and during a race school. Just to be clear, it is a matter of last resort, to be used when the alternative is lobbing it over a cliff edge or imminent contact with the Armco. The decision comes down to gravel rash or serious injury, possibly death. In the case mentioned, it would have saved that unfortunate woman's life!
Brakes and rubber are indeed preferable as long as they are still effective.
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For what it's worth, I bought a 2009 Fargo frame/fork yesterday at an unbeatable price ($375 brand new!). It's very easy to allow a couple of negative accounts convince you to steer clear of a purchase. IThe internet has given us nothing if not the ability to cast doubt into every decision we make in life. Though I appreciate the head's up by the original poster in this thread, I decided to trust the overwhelming positivity expressed in this thread on MTBR.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=467422&highlight=Salsa+fargo
I intend to take my time building it up over the fall and winter and look forward to using it on a 9-day Olympic Peninsula road/fireroad tour next summer. The speed-wobbles will surely be on my mind when I take it on the first loaded spin down a nearby hill, but I'm going to assume the problem isn't terribly common or won't rear its head for me.
And if it does... buyer beware. At least I know Tim @ salsa will likely be there to help me get it straightened out.
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Straightened out - presumably with a big hammer :)
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For what it's worth, I bought a 2009 Fargo frame/fork yesterday at an unbeatable price ($375 brand new!). It's very easy to allow a couple of negative accounts convince you to steer clear of a purchase. IThe internet has given us nothing if not the ability to cast doubt into every decision we make in life. Though I appreciate the head's up by the original poster in this thread, I decided to trust the overwhelming positivity expressed in this thread on MTBR....
I've had nothing but an incredible experience in my travels with my Fargo. Have fun with your new bike!
Cheers,
MG
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Greetings Again Folks:
Well, I'm now well over halfway on the trip from Whitehorse to Vancouver, and I must say that it has been quite a ride - all things considered. I have been contacted by Tim from Salsa, and he has been outstanding in offering support and assistance. Between him and Ed from Mighty Riders (the excellent Vancouver shop where I bought the bike) I've been able to get this bike to almost behave. Here's what I've done with the Fargo that I've been having difficulties with...
1. Moved the saddle back to the max allowable on the rails.
2. Dropped the handlebar two spacers (20 mm?).
3. Loosened the headset so that there is some movement at the bottom of the head tube fork interface.
4. Wrapped the top, seat, and down tubes with spare inner tubes.
5. Dropped the front and rear racks as low as possible - they now just clear the tire at the front, and touch the fender at the rear.
6. Moved the rear rack as close as possible to the seatstays.
7. Redistrubuted the weight in the panniers so that I've minimized the load on the front rack... Now about 15 to 18 lbs total up front.
8. I gave up on the bungee cord tie down idea for the panniers - it seemed to make the shimmy worse at all but the slowest of speeds.
9. I've now minimized the amount of gear hanging off the rear "deck" surface of the rear rack. The tent and the thermarest are still there, but now are strapped crosswise on top of the two rear panniers, along with the sleeping bag. This does make for a very large load on the rear wheel, but it seems to help reduce the shimmy.
Anyhow, as Galloper indicated, it appears that Salsa has some idea that the fork may be at issue... This bike performs excellently with little or no load, but isn't capable (for me, at any rate) of loaded touring with panniers. My next step is to try with a BOB trailer, which Tim at Salsa is kind enough to provide for me to see me through this tour. Kudos to you, Tim - it's good to see a company that stands behind their product, even when it appears problematic. I truly appeciate that Salsa could have left me literally on the side of the road, but instead, have gone out of their way to help make this trip the enjoyable experience it was planned to be. Thanks for that.
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Glad you're on the road John, even if it's not quite behaving as a proper touring bike should.
I have to say that over all of this my view of Salsa has moved from one of mild irritation to one of utter contempt.
Wrapping spare tubes around frame members strikes me as being a rather clever get you home fix.
In the circumstances, I hope they have the decency to replace your bike with a good one.
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I must say that Salsa has certainly stepped up to the plate to make this tour a success. It is very remote in Southern Yukon and Northern BC, and it's been a challenge to get assistance with the bike. I've had to rely on e-mail (where and when available) and some level of trial and error. Like you Galloper, I'm a Sgt Major (infantry, just back from Afghanistan) and am quite used to making things happen. You can imagine my frustration at the cobbling necessary to make this a go. Anyhow, I've just picked up a BOB trailer, and am now in a more populated part of the province and anticipate that things will get much smoother.
I think that the idea behind the Fargo is brilliant - disc brakes essentially mean no rim wear, plenty of braze ons, and (presumably) good geometry - should all add up to an excellent touring machine. The fork geometry may be the issue for me, or maybe some manufacturing glitch, but this is definitely a bike worth considering - depending of course, on what you wish to do with it. As I've stated, this is an awesome bike when ridden without a load... We'll see how it goes with the trailer. I've never used one before, so it'll be a good test - for me at least.
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I measured up my stuff and found that the weight of panniers and racks was 6kg against 8kg for the trailer complete with bag so not too much of a penalty. The people I've seen who used trailers seemed pleased with them.
I agree with the concept, some of out Lakeland and Pennine trails are a bit of a chore on a road bike so a more robust and off road capable bike is a good idea.
I also like the brakes, the BB5s I find excellent, I have them on a Gary Fisher mtb and they provide good stopping power without the overkill of the full on mtb hydraulic types.
Enjoy the ride
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I have read all the posts carefully and have looked at the Salsa website for the geometry and specifications of the Fargo. The engineers who have talked about the dynamics of harmonic vibration haven't taken the human body and load variations into account. In most cases an inherent frameset vibration should be damped or eliminated by moving the body and or load around as has been tried by the Alaskan rider. Since this was not effective with the OP and has been only partially successful the second rider I think it is time to look elsewhere.
Looking at the Fargo I see a very long wheelbase, 70 degree head angle 55mm fork and all steel construction (and it looks pretty beefy also). This is a very stable geometry and there is no reason to expect a design problem with it. I don't see any specs for the thickness of the tubing, but it isn't a super light bike so I think it would be stiff enough (although a 300 pound load could be pushing it). So what is unique about this design that could create unique problems with shimmy? I see two possibilities:
1 - the odd vertical riser lugs used at the back of the rear triangle.
2 - the fact that it is a production frameset with front and rear disc brakes.
The only two times I personally have experienced shimmy on fast downhills was caused by hypothermia (I couldn't stop shaking the bars) in one case and a very floppy rear rack in the second case. The rear load would oscillate back and forth (probably excited by some slight wheel imbalance) and at certain speeds get in resonance with the front end geometry (with a floppy handlebar bag) and things would get exciting. Moving the load around and securing that handlebar bag made a huge difference. I got a decent rear rack and never had the experience again.
Since the second rider has seen an improvement with increasing his rear rack weight and lightening the front I don't think the rear rack is the main culpret here - he has just changed the resonance frequencies of the elements of the overall system so they don't match up so badly.
I'm going to suggest that the real problem may be machine made wheels. Even without a pad nearby, the straightness of a wheel is easy to eyeball, and I expect that is something these riders looked at early on. However, on a bike with no rim brakes an slightly egg or oval shaped wheel is going to be very easily overlooked. This will make for a slight up and down movement with every revolution, even the slightest left/right imbalance in the load will respond to this and impart a back and forth wobble to the frame (and rack) - inducing some degree of steering effect which will have secondary effects. Hit a harmonic and the shimmy could get serious. This sort of motion could have more than one harmonic (possibly with different parts of the load) within the range of speeds. Moving the load around might only shift the harmonic points. Some support for this theory can be found in the fact that the problem decreased for the second rider as a result of lowering the CG of the load.
I suggest the wheels and tires be inspected very carefully for roundness, straightness and balance. Even a plastic wheel reflector can throw a wheel enough out of balance to get significant vibration at high speed. If one pannier has something heavy in an outside location (particularly if it can move a bit) that could interact with the wheel forces in unpredictable ways.
Stuffing the panniers tight with high density items close to the bike centerline and then compressing them with rope or straps to minimize movement should reduce vibration intensity. If there is a handlebar bag in use -empty it or take it off completely. If there are front panniers (and there should be for balance reasons) they should be low-riders centered on the steering axis) any other position for front load is going to make for undesirable dynamic steering effects. The tire pressure in the front tire should be 10-20 psi less than the rear - depending on load percentage.
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In re-reading the thread - I see that the second rider has already done all that could be done in securing and re-distributing the load - except that it sounds like he is using an over the wheel rack in the front - which is a particularly bad idea on a 70 degree angle headset - as alluded to by Tim in his first post. Since the OP indicated he was using a low-rider rack on the front - this isn't a full explanation. The second rider said he was using a handlebar bag (get rid of it), the OP never mentioned a handlebar bag.
Tim's comment: "We have had a small amount of people report a shimmy with a heavier front load on the Fargo, and it typically lies with load placement. Due to the slacker head angle of the Fargo and the more "mountain" geometry, if the load is high, this is possible, but not common, as it also has to do with rider placement on the bike."
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machine made wheels
I think they can quickly be ruled out by the fact that his first wobble shows up at 4mph, where the wheels are turning less than one revolution per second.
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I used to tour on a Bianchi Volpe. ...
The Volpe frame was made from Reynolds 520 alloy, which if memory served me right, is designed for light applications. So I am left to believe that touring bikes should never be made out of 520/525 alloy. 520's and LHT's are made from generic chromoly tubing, so cannot comment on the properties of their tube sets. That is why whenever the question comes up about what kind of bike should be purchased, I steer them to a Jamis Aurora Elite with its stiffer Reynolds 631 frame. The Elite looks good on paper, but I don't know anyone that has actually ridden one. ...
If my Volpe's frame had been stiffer, I would have kept riding it. The fit was good, the components were good enough, and the bike was great to ride unloaded.
This poster doesn't say how much he weighs, but he has a valid point about Reynolds 520 - which does not indicate a steel alloy, but rather a set of tubes made of standard 4170 chrome moly in a Taiwan plant to Reynolds specifications. Those specifications are for some fairly thin double butted tubes - that are better suited to credit card touring than fully loaded touring with a heavy rider. You can find the thickness specifications on Reynolds website. I have a Jamis Aurora (not elite) with the 520 tubeset and for me it is great - I weigh 160 and pack light.
It is probably incorrect to say that the tubing used on the elite is stiffer unless it is also thicker walled (and therefore heavier) or larger diameter tubes it will not be stiffer. That alloy may have a higher tensile strength - that would make it stronger, but the modulus of elasticity will be exactly the same as any other steel alloy.
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In response to the comment on bar bags, yes, I was using one. I have always wondered about the effect of a bar bag on stability but as I've used them on a number of other bikes without problem, and exactly the same load on A Surly LHT I discounted it on this occasion.
I've now started to wonder if the problem could be something to do with a heavier frame, on my alu framed Dawes and two lighter steel framed bikes, I didn't encounter the problem.
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Hmm! This is all getting rather serious. Looking back over the posts there are 5 Fargo owners who are happy with their bikes and two, Johnnyo and myself, who have had major handling problems. Add in a couple of defective forks and it's all starting to look rather dodgy.
I don't know how many Fargos Salsa produce and sell each year but with 2 out of 5 experiencing problems, that's about a 40% failure rate. In terms of product quality that's disastrous!
I think Salsa now need to get to the bottom of this fairly quickly before someone gets spat off in front of an 18 wheeler.
This post is embarrassingly bad.
There is no way that the posts here can be trusted to be a random statistical sampling of "problems". It's also extremely irresponsable to draw conclusions from a sample size of 5!
It's well known that people who have problems are more likely to post about them. That would strongly imply that the rate of reported problems here is artificially high.
This sounds like a high school math problem. I just retired from 30 years teaching same. If there are 5 happy riders and 2 with problems, then there are 2 out of 7 with problems, so more like 28-29% with problems, not 40%. Still not good, but better!
No, the math isn't the real mistake being made with this "analysis"!
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4. Wrapped the top, seat, and down tubes with spare inner tubes.
Never heard of doing this. With all the other things you did, one can't tell if this does anything. (It doesn't seem likely to me of doing anything.)
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I just had to chime in on this. I have a 09 Fargo that has about 6000 miles on it. 3 tours, including a fully loaded 1000 mile plus tour of Baja this past March. No shimmy what so ever, including a 45 mph descent! Felt very stable actually.
I have had zero problems and love the bike.
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njkayaker, I did actually admit my maths error on this, I was in the middle of something else and rushed it off without checking. ~The maths is, in the post, dreadful but I have already owned up to that.
Statistically, however, comparing the number of posters on this site (and I admit that this may not be representative of the every Salsa Owner in the world) who haven't had problems with those who have, still reveals a relatively high percentage. Add to that Salsa's own admission of problems with shimmying and it becomes even more apparent that there is a problem with this model.
And let's be clear about the nature of the problem, this is not something trivial, this is a bike which in my case was too dangerous to ride and in John's case appears to be equally serious.
As to the solution, well, getting the poor chap to wrap spare inner tubes around the frame is, frankly, laughable. Whether that came from Salsa or the LBS I don't know.
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njkayaker, I did actually admit my maths error on this, I was in the middle of something else and rushed it off without checking. ~The maths is, in the post, dreadful but I have already owned up to that.
I'm not complaining about the math error. That isn't the biggest error!
Statistically, however, comparing the number of posters on this site (and I admit that this may not be representative of the every Salsa Owner in the world) who haven't had problems with those who have, still reveals a relatively high percentage.
No, it doesn't "reveal a relatively high percentage" of problems occurring. Such a small and self-selected subpopulation can't say anything about the real rate of the problem in the total population.
To get an accurate measure of the real rate in the, you need a random and unbiased selection of samples (and you need more than 7 samples).
People volunteering information isn't random! The "statistics" are invalid unless the samples are randomly selected.
It's a very well-known bias that people who have problems are much more likely to post about them.
And let's be clear about the nature of the problem, this is not something trivial, this is a bike which in my case was too dangerous to ride and in John's case appears to be equally serious.
There isn't any problem talking about the issue. I don't have any problems with talking about the issue.
It is incorrect (plainly wrong) to think that the data provided in this thread is enough to say anything about the real rate of the problem across all Fargo owners.
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njkayaker, again I would mention that in any such argument, a lot of people will jump in and say, "I've had product XYZ for three months now and have had absolutely zero problems," implying that there must be something wrong with the complainer. If you look at the owner reviews of bikes in general, they tend to be very positive, and this without their having owned the product long enough to mean much. Especially with a major purchase like that, it's natural for someone to want to think they made the best decision, and to be proud of it. (I find more negative owner reviews on smaller purchases like cycle computers and tires.) Saying they haven't had any problem however just means the failure rate is not 100%. That's not very useful information, whether you're big into statistics or not.
To take a different example, a few years ago I read on the forums many (at least a dozen) first-hand accounts of people breaking Wippermann chains. One man wrote that after breaking three, he decided it was time to give up on Wipperman. One of his broke not even 100 yards into his first ride with it. Another had less than 100 miles. The places they were breaking was not where the ends were joined, so it was not an installation error. The plates were not merely pulling off the pins either, as if the fit weren't tight enough. The side plates were cracking, and the holes were breaking out. Wippermann apparently had a sporatic problem with their rivetting machine. Predictably, others jumped into the discussion saying things like "I've been using a Wipperman for 1,500 miles and have had no problems whatsoever." So what's the defect rate, as a percentage? I have no idea; but I do know that virtually every chain-breakage problem I've read was about Wipperman, and the only broken chain I've picked up off the road was also a Wippermann (a lot of its side plates had cracks radiating out from the holes)-- even though Wipperman does not have a very large percentage of the market. I have not heard further stories in the last couple of years. So did they get the problem fixed? Maybe, but you can bet that it will be a long time before I'm convinced it's safe to buy that brand of chain. Is my caution justified? I think so.
My best guess about the Fargo is still that once in awhile an asymmetrical fork gets through. That's no reflection on the frame except that that model of fork might only (or mainly) be getting used on that model of frame.
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njkayaker, again I would mention that in any such argument, a lot of people will jump in and say, "I've had product XYZ for three months now and have had absolutely zero problems," implying that there must be something wrong with the complainer. If you look at the owner reviews of bikes in general, they tend to be very positive, and this without their having owned the product long enough to mean much. Especially with a major purchase like that, it's natural for someone to want to think they made the best decision, and to be proud of it. (I find more negative owner reviews on smaller purchases like cycle computers and tires.) Saying they haven't had any problem however just means the failure rate is not 100%. That's not very useful information, whether you're big into statistics or not.
I'm only making a comment about the bad statistics. Nothing else.
The "positive reviews" is another common bias. It's the great middle of people (who don't have problems) who can be very underrepresented.
I am not suggesting that people not talk about their negative experiences about a product (well, as long as they are honest about it).
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This thread should be closed by the admins.
Or at the least, the subject should be reworded for accuracy to something like "My Personal Poor Experience with a Salsa Fargo"
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I agree with Tim. This thread is now at P7. It's hard to imagine any further constructive contributions to the discussion. Enough already.
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As requested the thread has been locked.