Adventure Cycling Association Forum

Bicycle Travel => General Discussion => Topic started by: Westinghouse on October 01, 2018, 10:59:53 am

 
Title: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 01, 2018, 10:59:53 am
"Absolutely no need for this at all. A beautiful wide shoulder, totally destroyed for all intents and purposes by this chip seal rubbish. Brutal to ride on, but you have to go there when trucks approach. How do you know a truck is coming from behind? Theres a car coming from the front too. Never ceases to amaze me, no traffic for hours, and then one from fore and one from aft, cross right next to you. Incredible how often this happens."


The quote above comes from Crazyguyonabike.com. Search southern tier. The first entry should be Rufus and Dave do Alaska to Florida. Go to page 68 on his journal. Has anyone else seen that kind of deliberate coordination of vehicles to intercept cyclists? I have seen it many countless times. I have seen it used for illegal stalking and annoyances. Has anyone here encountered these four-wheeled miscreants on tour?
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Pat Lamb on October 01, 2018, 03:44:30 pm
Can't remember who said it, "Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."  Or perhaps, in this case, chance.  How would two cars or trucks time things so perfectly without another one to alert them when and where that solitary cyclist is riding?  Remember, "no traffic for hours" to cue them.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: jamawani on October 01, 2018, 08:58:31 pm
"Scissors" occur when a cyclist has a car overtaking as well as oncoming.
How often do scissors occur in a given stretch or road?
It's geometric.

If 100 cars are eastbound and 100 westbound, there will be 10,000 scissors.
If 200 cars are eastbound and 200 westbound, there will be 40,000 scissors.
(Provided all cars cover the entire route and the last eastbound departs before the first westbound finishes.)
* Real time traffic models are far more complex, of course.

But that gives you an idea - - scissors are not uncommon.
In fact, they are to be expected.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: RonK on October 01, 2018, 10:38:44 pm
Some people love to see conspiracies where there are none. I think your humour detector may be broken - or perhaps you simply cannot pick a South African's dry wit.

I've remarked about this phenomenon in my own journals. I think of it as Murphy's Law of Traffic, of which, I'm convinced there are several.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: BikeliciousBabe on October 02, 2018, 10:21:25 am
Some people love to see conspiracies where there are none.

Yep. See reply #12 in this thread:

https://forums.adventurecycling.org/index.php?topic=13772.msg71648#msg71648

Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 02, 2018, 11:20:29 am
It's outside your perspectives. No cars for hours is not 10,000 scissors. When that same pattern persists, scissors as you say, only at the first expansion crack of EVERY bridge from FL to CA, that is absolutely not simply chance. You read a few words about events that go on for months, and you seem to arrogate that you are more competent on the subject than someone who was right in the middle of it for 60 days or longer. When the scissor happens precisely at EVERY small thing in the side lane that causes you to swerve into the motorized lane, every time from FL to CA, even where, like Roofus said, there was no traffic for 30 or 40 minutes at a time, mere happenstance is ruled out. When one of these four-wheeled miscreants, a complete stranger, stops and approaches you in a convenience store parking lot, and walks directly up to you and tells you who they are and why they are doing it, noise and crowding, the idea it is mere chance is completely inappropriate and unacceptable. Seems like a conflict of interest somewhere.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 02, 2018, 11:32:34 am
That fact is, there are people following lone cyclists and scissoring them for whatever reason they have. That happening in exactly the same places from FL to CA, every time, is not chance. It is coordinated. How do they time it that precisely? You would have to ask them. I know they do it. There is more to it than I have revealed. Several times when approaching a bridge on the ST, I would stop or slow to throw off their timing. Looking in front and behind I saw them slowing down too. Often the trucks would gear down to slow to keep the timing right. I experimented with the timing element several times, and ever time they adjusted their speed. The so called scissoring became absolutely 100% accurately predictable at EVERY bridge and EVERY side lane blockage all the way from FL to CA no matter how infrequent the cars and trucks. It is not possibly mere chance. The bridge interceptions caused loud, penetrating, ear-splitting noise. The side lane blockage interceptions caused crowding. I happen to know this. I did, after all, have a revealing conversation with one of those involved. Unlike many on the www, I do take the time to verify before I write.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 02, 2018, 11:38:15 am
That fact is, there are people following lone cyclists and scissoring them for whatever reason they have. That happening in exactly the same places from FL to CA, every time, is not chance. It is coordinated. How do they time it that precisely? You would have to ask them. I know they do it. There is more to it than I have revealed. Several times when approaching a bridge on the ST, I would stop or slow to throw off their timing. Looking in front and behind I saw them slowing down too. Often the trucks would gear down to slow to keep the timing right. I experimented with the timing element several times, and ever time they adjusted their speed. The so called scissoring became absolutely 100% accurately predictable at EVERY bridge and EVERY side lane blockage all the way from FL to CA no matter how infrequent the cars and trucks. It is not possibly mere chance. The bridge interceptions caused loud, penetrating, ear-splitting noise. The side lane blockage interceptions caused crowding. I happen to know this
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 02, 2018, 12:19:48 pm
Can't remember who said it, "Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."  Or perhaps, in this case, chance.  How would two cars or trucks time things so perfectly without another one to alert them when and where that solitary cyclist is riding?  Remember, "no traffic for hours" to cue them.

Approaching from the front and rear, once the target is in sight it is merely a matter of adjusting speed to come abreast of each other and the cyclist.  Believe me, I have seen this many countless times even on back roads on Sundays with almost a complete absence of traffic. I adjusted my speed to throw off their timing many times, but only to see them adjusting theirs. Another matter of note. All their license plates were obscured in some ways. You could not read them standing still at 20 feet, much less at 60 mph. I checked many tags in those parts  thinking that kind of dirty obscured tag situation was common in those areas. All tags were clean and easy to read. Only the scissoring vehicles had impossible to read tags. On one vehicle there was a black piece of something fastened over the tag. I know more about this than I have said here. I am simply reporting a problem. I verified it many times before I saw it for what it was. Why anyone would want to say multiple stalking crimes did not happen seems suspicious.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 02, 2018, 03:20:52 pm
"Scissors" occur when a cyclist has a car overtaking as well as oncoming.
How often do scissors occur in a given stretch or road?
It's geometric.

If 100 cars are eastbound and 100 westbound, there will be 10,000 scissors.
If 200 cars are eastbound and 200 westbound, there will be 40,000 scissors.
(Provided all cars cover the entire route and the last eastbound departs before the first westbound finishes.)
* Real time traffic models are far more complex, of course.


I thought about that and tested it. On interstate side lanes where noise making and crowding were not possible, I watched carefully. I watched for vehicles on east and west bound lanes coming abreast of one another and me at the same time. It almost never happened, 10,000 scissors, 40,000 scissors, whatever. It happened so infrequently if at all that I tired of watching for it. This so called scissoring I write about was stalking--timed, coordinated, stalking. Anyone who insists  otherwise may be complicit in some way. One thing these criminals do not want is exposure of their activities. I will say this about on the interstates. Whenever I came to an overpass I would take the flat exit and entrance ramps past the uprises. I would look over to the beginnings of the overpasses. Every time there was a vehicle, usually a truck, hitting the first  expansion crack about exactly abreast. They could not make the noise that way, but they did make the point. There were other examples which were unquestionably deliberate and timed and coordinated.

But that gives you an idea - - scissors are not uncommon.
In fact, they are to be expected.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: jamawani on October 02, 2018, 08:24:44 pm
Oh, my. Wall of words.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Pat Lamb on October 02, 2018, 09:48:57 pm
Some people love to see conspiracies where there are none.

Yep. See reply #12 in this thread:

https://forums.adventurecycling.org/index.php?topic=13772.msg71648#msg71648

It's possible this only-seen-by-one-person phenomenon is recurring after two years.

All their license plates were obscured in some ways. You could not read them standing still at 20 feet, much less at 60 mph. ... On one vehicle there was a black piece of something fastened over the tag. I know more about this than I have said here.

Or maybe we're being trolled by an expert.

When one of these four-wheeled miscreants, a complete stranger, stops and approaches you in a convenience store parking lot, and walks directly up to you and tells you who they are and why they are doing it, noise and crowding, the idea it is mere chance is completely inappropriate and unacceptable.

Or maybe this is an object lesson: don't piss off the guys flying the black helicopters.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 03, 2018, 04:51:01 am
No trolling. No being seen by only one person. It has been mentioned by others in other articles. What we have here is what we have on many US forums---a problem being exposed while others try to say the problem did not or does not exist. Perhaps there is a conflict of interest. I do know this. I have been on many open internet forums since 2002. Discussions regarded matter of fact, not opinion. Unpopular facts were not received. Most people who posted did not really know their subject. They always tried to undercut those with contrary but studied and authoritative facts. When those who did research as to the facts proved the others wrong, it was the ones who knew the subject who were banned or otherwise attacked. This pattern has held true almost 100 % invariably. The answers are the same on all forums. They say the person is trolling when it is absolutely nothing of the sort. It is a simple matter of presenting tangible facts. Accusations of trolling is such a lame cop out.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: David W Pratt on October 05, 2018, 07:08:31 am
Regardless of their motives, or whatever highly encrypted communications they use to coordinate their nefarious activities, the solution is simple: more bicycles.  To perform the scissors requires two motorists for every bicycle.  Each additional cyclist needs two additional motorists.  It is simple math, we can bury them.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 05, 2018, 08:08:28 am
That's something. It is a shame a person cannot go out across the continent on a bicycle, minding his own business completely, without crooks  following and trying to mess it up for him. With all the people in prison and jail in this country, 25% of the world's prison population, we should be safe, but still the country is rife with crime. It is an utter disgrace.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: aggie on October 05, 2018, 11:18:27 am
I just worked as a SAG on a ride across Nevada on Hwy 50 which is part of the western express.  There were several times during the ride where I was both approaching a rider and an oncoming car.  If I hadn't slowed down to allow the other car to pass a "scissors" would have occurred.  In my opinion in almost all cases this was the result of drivers not slowing down to ensure they could pass the bicyclist with the law required 3 feet.  It is unfortunate that many drivers are unaware of the law and many still consider the road only for motor vehicles and not a place for bicycles.  I don't consider it stalking unless I see the same identifiable car doing it again/repeatably.   There was one case where a truck driver appeared to deliberately change lanes to force one of the riders off the road but that was the exception.  (Unfortunately we were not able to get enough identifying information to report the truck.)  I also saw many instances where vehicles slowed down and waited for a safe place to pass cyclists with the law required 3 feet. 

Just as a side note Hwy 50 across has changed since I first rode it in 2002.  Traffic has picked up significantly and much of the road is now chip seal (awful stuff).  There isn't much of a shoulder and Nevada DOT has put a rumble strip on what little shoulder there is so riders have to ride to the left of the white line.  I've found most of the drivers to be considerate of bicyclists but as with anything there are exceptions.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: canalligators on October 05, 2018, 09:20:42 pm
I wouldn't say it doesn't happen.  I'd just say that I can't remember it happening to me.  And I try to watch every car pass in my mirror.  I don't remember ever seeing a vehicle change speed when approaching, from either direction. 

What does happen to me with some regularity is they don't change speed to avoid a scissors, even if it would be a small adjustment.  My guess is that they're just not paying attention, don't think of it, or don't give a damn.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 06, 2018, 08:45:48 am
I just worked as a SAG on a ride across Nevada on Hwy 50 which is part of the western express.  There were several times during the ride where I was both approaching a rider and an oncoming car.  If I hadn't slowed down to allow the other car to pass a "scissors" would have occurred.  In my opinion in almost all cases this was the result of drivers not slowing down to ensure they could pass the bicyclist with the law required 3 feet.  It is unfortunate that many drivers are unaware of the law and many still consider the road only for motor vehicles and not a place for bicycles.  I don't consider it stalking unless I see the same identifiable car doing it again/repeatably.   There was one case where a truck driver appeared to deliberately change lanes to force one of the riders off the road but that was the exception.  (Unfortunately we were not able to get enough identifying information to report the truck.)  I also saw many instances where vehicles slowed down and waited for a safe place to pass cyclists with the law required 3 feet. 

Just as a side note Hwy 50 across has changed since I first rode it in 2002.  Traffic has picked up significantly and much of the road is now chip seal (awful stuff).  There isn't much of a shoulder and Nevada DOT has put a rumble strip on what little shoulder there is so riders have to ride to the left of the white line.  I've found most of the drivers to be considerate of bicyclists but as with anything there are exceptions.

What you are writing about is a very different matter from what I posted. What you encountered was random traffic. What I encountered was most definitely not random. The exact same patterns forcing the same results at the beginning of every bridge across the continent and every small thing laid across the side lane is not random, and definitely not mere chance when there is almost no traffic for extended periods. As for your mention of the same vehicles over and over, that was what happened near the end of the stalking on one ST crossing. I was near and on highway 78 going west toward Glamis and beyond. There were these two tractor trailer trucks. They looked different from most others. They seemed a bit narrower and perhaps a little shorter than most. The windows were heavily tinted. They had sun visors on the outside that angled downwards over the tops of their windshields. First, the two came abreast of each other precisely where I was, crowding on a narrow almost shoulderless road. A while later the same two trucks and the same exactly coordinated move abreast of each other and me. A while later the same two trucks again, and later again, and again, and later again. It was obvious as hell. They coordinated it and did it. They went ahead, turned around somewhere, did it again, turned around and did it again, and so on. Believe me, I know more about this than I reveal outright. There is no way I would come on this forum and make these statements unless I know for absolute certainty what I am saying. That is felony stalking.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on October 06, 2018, 08:57:16 am
Regardless of their motives, or whatever highly encrypted communications they use to coordinate their nefarious activities, the solution is simple: more bicycles.  To perform the scissors requires two motorists for every bicycle.  Each additional cyclist needs two additional motorists.  It is simple math, we can bury them.

I dare say they choose single cyclists. That means no witnesses around for one thing. They choose areas where there is not much traffic. The next time I tour I will keep a video recorder mounted. I reported this to  state attorney generals in every state from FL to CA and the FBI. The Feds said to contact local law enforcement where it happens. I pointed out they are all part of a group whose activities are illegal and cross state lines, thus making the offenses federal. They did not want to do anything about it. The attorney general of FL referred to it as "alleged" stalking and gave the same advice---contact local authorities where it happens. That means I would have to call county sheriff departments in myriad counties all the way across the southern tier. This country is really getting to be no good. It has fallen behind many others in various standards. It is getting worse. I would not contact local authorities. They are little better than gangs themselves, and might be complicit to begin with. 
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: fastrog on November 10, 2018, 08:08:02 pm
There is a less nefarious explanation for vehicles slowing before a bridge or a narrow road. A good driver might see the cyclist, slow for the cyclist and oncoming cars and proceed. In a car, I slow before a narrow bridge, checking of the oncoming to see of it is wide or weavy. On a bike, I watch the oncoming cars AND the rear-approaching ones. if the vehicles are wider than normal, not in their lanes  or are sporting a Rebel Flag, I might just stop, get a swig of water and wait for the traffic to clear. There are certainly plenty of nut jobs out there, but I find the chances of this kind of traffic conspiracy highly unlikely, maybe a little paranoid and even a little aggressive in sharing the road.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on November 12, 2018, 02:13:45 pm
Everyone has an opinion. Either you did not read the articles, or you have a problem with reading comprehension, or both. Considering the content, your response is inappropriate. Same old same old for the internet.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: John Nettles on November 12, 2018, 09:54:29 pm
Westinghouse, remind me to never ride with you  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on November 14, 2018, 11:29:10 am
Westinghouse, remind me to never ride with you  :D :D :D

LOL. I don't blame  you. After all that, I wouldn't want to ride with me either.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on February 22, 2020, 08:02:42 pm
Can't remember who said it, "Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."  Or perhaps, in this case, chance.  How would two cars or trucks time things so perfectly without another one to alert them when and where that solitary cyclist is riding?  Remember, "no traffic for hours" to cue them.

The cyclist himself is the third party alert. His speed is easily determined. You can start out in a car two hours after he passes, and accurately predict when you will overtake. Same from the other direction. There you have your three parties. Where visibility is clear and infinite, as they call it, both motorists get him in sight, and fine tune the intercept by dead reckoning and adjusting speed. Besides that, I had already told you I had seen these deliberately coordinated patterns many times. That really equals=many times. I was directly involved in day after day, week after week---damn near every day. The people doing it are criminals.


Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on February 22, 2020, 08:11:10 pm
"Scissors" occur when a cyclist has a car overtaking as well as oncoming.
How often do scissors occur in a given stretch or road?
It's geometric.

If 100 cars are eastbound and 100 westbound, there will be 10,000 scissors.
If 200 cars are eastbound and 200 westbound, there will be 40,000 scissors.
(Provided all cars cover the entire route and the last eastbound departs before the first westbound finishes.)
* Real time traffic models are far more complex, of course.

The OP had little to do with scissors as you call it. It was about two or more vehicles crossing the first expansion crack of e-v-e-r-y bridge from Florida to California at exactly the same time as a transcontinental cyclist. And other matters like that which were not by any possibility chance. In fact this bridge noise happened on back roads where traffic might be seen only occasionally, a few cars in half an hour or so. Out on the interstate where there was much more steady traffic, it was observed the three-abreast arrangement happened not at all or so infrequently that observer stopped looking for it.

But that gives you an idea - - scissors are not uncommon.
In fact, they are to be expected.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: Westinghouse on February 27, 2020, 03:00:56 am
Please continue. your ignorance might just capture somebody's attention. You know you are lying.
Title: Re: Coordinated stalking on the road
Post by: jsieber on February 27, 2020, 11:19:07 am
This topic has been locked as it is moving into behavior that is no longer helpful to fellow cyclists.