Author Topic: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker  (Read 32842 times)

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Offline CanvasAndSteel

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2015, 02:57:53 pm »
Now that I'm at my keyboard and not thumbing on my phone I can give a fuller response.

Yes, Sugino makes some very fine square taper bottom brackets, as does Stronglight.  Shimano, as you noted, makes squre taper for their more affordable cranks, as does Origin 8, Sram and several others.  But the bike industry has not moved on from square taper because of performance issues.  Indeed, square taper bottom brackets will outperform and long outlast and external bottom brackets, partly because of the difference in size of the bearings (significant difference with loose or caged balls, less so with cartridge bearings). 

The cycling industry was not addressing a performance issue when it moved on from square taper, but a production issue.  With external bottom brackets they needed to make only one size and hand out spacers with them, whereas square tapered bottom brackets required different length spindles.  A one size fits all solution allowed parts companies to save money.  It also simpliefied things at the shop, as anyone with a torque wrench and the special bb tool for each different bottom bracket could install it.  There was no skill or experience required, such as preloading the cup on the square taper.  Spin a well adjusted crankset on a square taper and watch the think go round 15-20 times.  Do the same with an external bb and it will go around 2, maybe three times.

As for quality cranks for square taper bottom brackets, there are a few out there.  There are clearly fewer than for the external bottom brackets, but how many does one need?  And, even better, they aren't of the ugly aluminum pie plate sort so common with modern cranksets (certainly my personal opinion).

As for durability, most external bottom brackets are basically disposable, with the best of them lasting for a few years of hard use and the worst of them requiring replacement after every season.  Square taper bottom brackets can easily last for decades and many thousands of miles.  Most people would prefer to replace their bottom brackets than do the maintenance that will keep a square taper bottom bracket spinning as new, but it's not a quality or performance issue.

As for QBP and Surly, yes, I know of QBP (I live in the Twin Cities), and, yes, I'm aware Surly is a subsidiary of QBP.  But Surly has been responsible for significant innovation in the last decade or so.  And appeal of their bikes is broader than retro grouches.  As another poster mentioned, they (along with 9-Zero-7) are almost singularly responsible for fat bikes.  The Troll is a more versatile frame than anyone else is building.  I could go on.  As for "cheap Chinese steel," 4130 Chromoly is 4130 Chromoly, and I can't fault the welding at the tube joints.  In addition, it's only specialty builders and a small number of production companies that don't have their frames made of "cheap Chinese steel." 

For the record, I put XT Hollowtech cranksets and bottom brackets on both the Trolls I built, but for a major tour I am planning in the summer of 2019 I will switch to a square taper bottom bracket and crankset.  I haven't yet decided whether it will be SKF, Phil Wood or White Industries.

 
(meaning you won't be told that square taper bottom brackets are no longer made or that they are, but just basic, inexpensive ones).  I built up Surly Trolls for my wife and me.

I'll admit I was surprised Sugino still makes square taper cranks.  I have not heard of Sugino since the mid 1980s.  Did not even know they still existed.  As for the ones Surly uses on its complete bikes.  They are some Chinese company I have never heard of.  Shimano abandoned square tapers on its upper models in the late 1990s or so.  They may still make square taper cranks for the cheapest bikes they equip.  But not on the upper levels.  I have several Dura Ace square taper cranks.  And Campagnolo square taper cranks.  All over 15 years old.  Not sure I would recommend someone build up a bike using parts 15 or more years old.  Just like I would not recommend someone build up a bike using 7 or 8 speed parts.  The biking world has moved on.

Not sure how square taper bottom brackets can use larger bearings than Shimano Hollowtech.  Square taper bottom brackets go inside the bottom bracket shell on the frame.  Its a tube about 1.375" diameter.  Hollowtech shells are about 1.875" diameter.  About half inch larger because the Hollowtech shells that hold the bottom bracket bearings are outside the frame's bottom bracket tube, which is about 1.375" diameter.  With the larger Hollowtech shell you end up with more and bigger bearings.  But anyway, bottom brackets are fairly durable and rarely give any problems.  The problem with square taper sealed bottom brackets is there are not many or any higher end cranks built for them anymore.  The Sugino mentioned above are probably nice.  I have good memories of Sugino from about 30 years ago.

Jan Heine, the link you provided, runs a magazine and a bicycle parts company.  A company that sells the square taper bottom brackets you are fond of.  He might have a vested interest.  Kind of like when a bike magazine recommends a bike and then you see advertisements in the magazine from that same bike brand.  Makes you wonder if the magazine selling advertisements to the bike company can be trusted to do an objective review of the bike.  They are paid by the bike company.

You say you are a Surly owner.  Do you know anything about Surly?  Surly is a brand name created by QBP.  QBP is the largest bike parts distributor in the US.  QBP is based in Minneapolis.  QBP supplies all the stuff to your local bike shop.  QBP saw an opportunity in the biking world.  People were fond of old biking parts for some reason.  Not sure why because old bike parts never worked as nicely as newer parts.  But QBP wanted to capitalize on this fondness people had for the old days.  So they created the Surly brand.  All Surly stuff is made in China.  QBP has many contacts in China because they import all the stuff they distribute from China.  QBP knows China very well.  QBP had Surly bike frames made in China from cheap Chinese steel.  China is a huge steel producer.  Hopefully QBP monitors closely the Chinese factories making the Surly frames.  QBP can sell its Surly frames pretty cheaply in the US because it makes them very cheaply in China and still make a good profit.  Good business plan.  QBP already distributes to every bike shop in the US so they have the distribution network already established.  Sell Surly frames and parts to the same shops they already serve.  QBP saw the niche for old style nostalgic bike parts and they filled it with the Surly brand creation.

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2015, 08:29:28 pm »
Thanks for all of the input guys.  I started with other sites and still frequent them and get some information from there but I really like it here.  I like the guys I'm talking to on this forum, the have been a big help.  So as long as everyone wants to share their thoughts and experiences I'm listening. 

I take the bike to the powder coat guy tomorrow, pretty excited to get it done.  I will post a picture when I get it back.

Offline Datsdad

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2015, 05:21:49 pm »
I had the exact same dilemma when I purchased my LHT. I wanted the 700 tires but my normal fit is a 54CM bike. I was able to go to another town a couple of hours away which had Surly's in stock for a test ride. I had no problems fitting on the larger bike for the 700 tires. I've done about 3000 miles so far on my LTH. I'm 60+ in age, stand 5'9" and weight approx. 195. My pants have a 30" inseam.

Hope that helps...

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2015, 07:46:41 pm »
I had the exact same dilemma when I purchased my LHT. I wanted the 700 tires but my normal fit is a 54CM bike. I was able to go to another town a couple of hours away which had Surly's in stock for a test ride. I had no problems fitting on the larger bike for the 700 tires. I've done about 3000 miles so far on my LTH. I'm 60+ in age, stand 5'9" and weight approx. 195. My pants have a 30" inseam.

Hope that helps...

Datsdad, yes that helps a bunch!  Thanks.  Im an inch taller, 20 lbs. heavier, and 15 years younger, so the bike should fit me well then.  I dropped it off at the powder coat company today and I should have it back in 2 weeks in International Orange.  Im getting the stem done as well and I should have my cane creek headset in a few days. I was pretty impressed by the powder coat guy, it is apparent that he has done bicycles many times before.  I feel a lot better now that I have spoke to him in person. 

Thanks again for the information, I was hoping that I hadn't put all this time and money into a bike that was a little to big for me. 

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2015, 10:14:47 pm »
Got my bike back from the powder coat company and man this thing looks great.  I will try to post a picture real soon.  I got the headset as well, along with my spacers and my brass bell from Velo Orange.  Now I have Christmas and birthday money and I want to purchase the Chain set/BB.  SO many choices I just still am not sure where to start. 

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2015, 10:06:38 pm »
Alright guys, I may have found my crankset.  I am looking at the Shimano Deore M590 9Speed Crankset, 26-36-48.  Can this be considered a touring crankset?  I like the reviews on it and the price is good.  My touring will be most of the time loaded down.  Not sure about the terrain as I have many places I want to go ride.  I look forward to hearing from you all.  Thanks.

Offline RonK

Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2015, 01:23:02 am »
Yes - but since you have a choice, opt for the 44-32-22.

A 26t chainring is too big for hilly routes.


Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

Offline DaveB

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2015, 08:13:55 am »
Yes - but since you have a choice, opt for the 44-32-22.

A 26t chainring is too big for hilly routes.
I agree the 22T chainring would be better but a 26T granny ring paired with a 32T or 34T rear cog does give a suitably low gear (22 gear-inches or 21.6 gear-inches)

Offline RonK

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2015, 04:27:54 pm »

Yes - but since you have a choice, opt for the 44-32-22.

A 26t chainring is too big for hilly routes.
I agree the 22T chainring would be better but a 26T granny ring paired with a 32T or 34T rear cog does give a suitably low gear (22 gear-inches or 21.6 gear-inches)
Not low enough for me. I have 22x34 (17.5 gear inches) and still find myself walking at times.


Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

Offline Pat Lamb

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2015, 06:41:32 pm »
I agree the 22T chainring would be better but a 26T granny ring paired with a 32T or 34T rear cog does give a suitably low gear (22 gear-inches or 21.6 gear-inches)
Not low enough for me. I have 22x34 (17.5 gear inches) and still find myself walking at times.

You can never be too thin, too rich, or have bikes geared too low.

(Unless maybe you get to a point you can't keep the bike upright while pedaling, but that's another topic.)

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2015, 07:42:56 pm »
I am looking at the Shimano Deore M590 9Speed Crankset, 26-36-48.  Can this be considered a touring crankset?

This is a 9 speed crankset.  Around $62 from Merlin Cycles in 44-32-22 rings.  Why pick the odd 48-36-26 combination instead of the much better rings/crank I listed?  It costs $20-25 for a better 22 inner ring.  Yes it will work fine for touring.

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2015, 06:48:33 pm »
Not sure Russ, can't seem to find what you suggested.  I would like to stay with Shimano if I could.  I would like to stay around $200 if I could.  I would like the whole crank color to be black, or mostly black.  The color seems insignificant but I'm building it so why not build what I want.  If you get a chance please let fill me in on what you suggested Russ.  This whole crankset choice thing is a little tougher than I thought it would be.

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2015, 07:09:27 am »
Performance has the Shimano M442 Crankset 22-32-44 for $49.99.  Good reviews including a guy who put it on a Surly LHT and has nothing but good to say about it.  Save some money maybe...I don't know.

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2015, 01:20:16 pm »
This is the crankset I found on Merlin Cycles.  Typed in "Shimano Deore M590 Crankset" to Google.
https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-deore-m590-9-speed-chainset-44899.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Chainsets&gclid=CPXe352XhMoCFQEIaQodNSYKoA

Friends and I have ordered from Merlin and lots of other British and European internet websites.  Never a problem.  Always much lower prices than US sellers.

Offline fiveonomo

Re: Surly LHT/Disc Trucker
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2015, 03:20:27 pm »
Thanks a lot Russ.  I think that is the route I am going, very nice price as well.  Thanks for the link, I've never ordered from overseas but I think I might give it a shot.  I don't know much about the Hollowtech BB that it comes with.  Will that BB fit my surly?  Any advice on the cassette?  I may order that as well.   9 speed 11-32?  9 speed 11-36?  I know I am asking a bunch of what may seem like silly questions to you but its just me, a park tools manual and youtube.  Im learning as I go.  This site has been very helpful as well with folks like yourself sharing their knowledge and experience.  Thanks a ton for taking the time to respond to my posts, I really appreciate it.