Author Topic: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour  (Read 14453 times)

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Offline RussSeaton

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2016, 10:49:26 pm »
Russ, thanks I had not really priced the Gunnar frames/forks, etc. I don't think the 480 frame will work for me (too big) but I should compare the specs with the Terry and LHT and also contact Gunnar, especially if I can save $$.

I compared the Gunnar and Terry websites for the bikes.  It appears Terry has Gunnar make them different sized bikes from the stock Gunnar bikes.  Terry does offer one smaller bike than the smallest Gunnar frame.  You might go custom with Gunnar and work with them to make a smaller frame similar to the smallest Terry frame.  Terry gives you its dimensions.  I'm sort of, kind of against the Terry bicycle simply because it is a Gunnar frame.  Terry even says its a Waterford (Gunnar) frame.  So why not skip the middle man (Terry) and buy the frame from its real maker (Waterford/Gunnar)?

Another person argues against buying a frame and building it yourself because the cost is usually more than buying it direct already built as a complete bike.  With the Terry it is very easy to see if this is true or not.  Terry says it is a Gunnar frame/fork.  Gunnar sells its frames direct to the public and lists its prices.  Price both the standard and custom options.  Terry also lists all the parts on the bike.  Simple to find all those parts on the internet and list their prices.  See if the totals work out right or wrong.  Biggest benefit for building it yourself is you get to pick every part yourself and get what you want.  Not accept a half-arse part you don't want.  Like 32 spokes instead of 36 for a loaded touring wheel.  ???  Or lower and better mid range gearing than what Terry offers.  An 11-36 cassette instead of the 11-34 Terry offers.  A 42-32-22 crankset instead of the 48-34-24 crankset Terry offers.  Wider handlebars.  Correct stem length.  Saddle that fits you.  By the time you pay to change all these parts on a stock bike, its probably better and cheaper to buy it right from the beginning.

Offline Pat Lamb

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2016, 10:37:11 am »
I'd take the Terry parts as her recommendations.  Without contacting Terry myself, I'd bet she'd either be happy to swap out parts the customer wants to change or to explain why the suggested change is a bad idea.  Every other builder I've talked with works that way.

Russ, I've always figured that anyone asking about buying a complete bike didn't have the mechanical experience to spec and to build their own bike.  Do you see any benefit to such a buyer, such as spec'ing compatible parts or having a single point of contact to fix anything that isn't quite right when they receive a complete bike?

Also, OP has said or implied she's looking at a total load (her plus luggage) of 150 pounds, on a 26" wheel.  I don't see that as enough of a load to drive 36 spokes as a hard requirement.  Could you explain why you think she needs 36 spoke wheels?

Offline dkoloko

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2016, 10:54:28 am »

Another person argues against buying a frame and building it yourself because the cost is usually more than buying it direct already built as a complete bike.  With the Terry it is very easy to see if this is true or not.  Terry says it is a Gunnar frame/fork.  Gunnar sells its frames direct to the public and lists its prices.  Price both the standard and custom options.  Terry also lists all the parts on the bike.  Simple to find all those parts on the internet and list their prices.  See if the totals work out right or wrong.  Biggest benefit for building it yourself is you get to pick every part yourself and get what you want. 

A lot of work when historically building a bike from a frame costs a lot more money than a comparable complete bike. You suggest making changes; more research. Who is going to decide final component choices? Who is going to install the components? We're talking here of a comparative novice. There is the problem of compatibility of presumptively superior components, a problem you should be well aware. I built a bike from a custom frame; took months after receiving frame (back order of components, etc). Satisfaction in specifying what you want, but more work, and more value in buying complete comparable bike.

Offline OutSpokyn1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 11:28:57 am »
I looked at the Gunnar site and custom frame, forks and paint comes in at around $2000 which leaves me at around $1500 for everything else. I am a novice, so although someday assembling my own bike may be a nice project, I don't think it's reasonable now.

So back to the original question of whether or not 8 lbs. is worth ~ $1500. I know this is a decision I ultimately have to make (out of many involved in planning an extensive tour).

So much fun though! I am learning so much from this discussion, so am very grateful for all your comments!

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2016, 02:29:17 pm »
I built a bike from a custom frame; took months after receiving frame (back order of components, etc). Satisfaction in specifying what you want, but more work, and more value in buying complete comparable bike.

Guess you lost me here.  You state you are satisfied specifying what you want.  But state its a better value to buy a complete bike.  Where is the value if you do not get what you want?  How is it a value if you put up with poor gearing selection?  Wheels that are weaker than they should be?  A shifting system that is not what you like?  You think it is a value to buy something for cheaper but is not what you want or like?  Odd value.

Offline OutSpokyn1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2016, 02:59:10 pm »
Hi Russ,  I would love to build a bike but do not think I have the experience and skills to do so. If I decide on a Terry bike, I will work with her, as she is open to substitutions/changes from what I understand.

The jury is still out though and for now I am going to concentrate on defining the load I am wanting/willing to carry. Also,trying to borrow a touring bike to load up and do a trial tour or figure out how to setup my current bike for a test run.

I do understand the importance of quality, fit and having a bike that you both enjoy and is up to the task of a long tour, so that is why I'm asking these questions.

Thanks again

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2016, 02:23:31 am »
The jury is still out though and for now I am going to concentrate on defining the load I am wanting/willing to carry. Also,trying to borrow a touring bike to load up and do a trial tour or figure out how to setup my current bike for a test run.

Definitely consider the ultra light method.  Several on this site have talked about that way.  I have a loaded touring bike and panniers.  So heavy loaded for me.  But if I was starting from scratch again, I would seriously consider the ultra light method with a regular road bike.  Adventure Cycling sells several bags that attach under the saddle and inside the main triangle for carrying a large amount of gear.

Offline dkoloko

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2016, 09:12:56 am »

Definitely consider the ultra light method.  Several on this site have talked about that way.  I have a loaded touring bike and panniers.  So heavy loaded for me.  But if I was starting from scratch again, I would seriously consider the ultra light method with a regular road bike.  Adventure Cycling sells several bags that attach under the saddle and inside the main triangle for carrying a large amount of gear.

I tried the ultra light method, rackless bags, on an extended tour last year, on front; kept rack and panniers on back, as I use the rack. The rackless bags were a disaster; weren't that secure, and high load caused falls. I do not recommend the ultra light method for a novice. Lighten the load carried in the bags instead. After experience, you can explore options.

Offline staehpj1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2016, 09:30:52 am »
In recent years I have gone lighter and lighter and found that it made a big difference for me.  That said the bike itself is the last place I worried about dropping weight.  It isn't that I didn't care about the bike weight, but I didn't bother to go to a lighter bike until I was at or below 20 pounds of gear weight.  Personally I think that is a sensible approach.

The handling of the bike is a separate issue.  To me the LHT feels like a tank and I find it decidedly less fun to ride.  Others would say it was more like a Cadillac and pure luxury.   Neither is wrong if it works for you.

My suggestion is to figure out what gear you will carry, then what kind of bags you need for that gear, and last what bike suits those choices (or just ride whatever you already have if it can be made to work.

BTW, you can do pretty well even on a tight budget.  I was very happy with a 1990 race bike (Cannondale Criterium) on my Southern Tier.  You can find similar bikes for $300-500.  The gearing was lowered, but otherwise it was pretty much box stock.  It might have been a terrible choice for some riders, but I found it to be close to perfect.

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2016, 12:16:22 pm »
In recent years I have gone lighter and lighter and found that it made a big difference for me.  That said the bike itself is the last place I worried about dropping weight.

Yes and no.  If going lighter and lighter, I doubt you would start with a heavy duty loaded touring bike.  I reckon you would start with a road racing style bicycle.  Doesn't have to be a racing bicycle, just a road bike.  Much lighter than a touring bike.  If starting with no bike, then don't look at loaded touring bikes.  Look at road racing style bikes if going lighter and lighter.  Or use what you already own.

Offline OutSpokyn1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2016, 12:01:36 pm »
I currently own a 2006 Trek Pilot 2.1 WSD. It has carbon front and rear forks and seat post. It has an attachment point at each fork (eyelet), but I have been told both (1) absolutely you cannot attach a rack to the carbon fork or seat post (2) It's okay if you keep the weight down.
I asked Trek and got this reply:
"Thanks for reaching out!  We usually recommend 300 lbs as the maximum weight for this type of bike. That would include your gear. As long as the bike has the eyelets to mount racks you should have no issues putting them on. You just do not want to clamp anything to carbon pieces on the bike. Consult your local Trek retailer before going ahead with any racks or gear.

As far as touring goes. The Pilot is a great bike for this application as it has a slightly more upright riding position then the race bikes. I think you'll enjoy the hours and miles of touring on it."

Experienced road bike tourers please chime in here. Many say I could do it, but wouldn't enjoy it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 01:51:11 pm by OutSpokyn1 »

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2016, 01:46:33 pm »
Experienced road bike torers please chime in here. Many say I could do it, but wouldn't enjoy it.

???  The ultra light touring method does not have to use ay racks at all.  Adventure Cycling sells a very large saddlebag and a bag that fits in the main tube (Revelate Designs).  And there are probably handlebar bags available too.  You can carry a fair amount of stuff without any racks at all.  And its lighter not having heavy racks on the bike.  You do have to be very minimal in your gear selection and watch the weight of all the gear closely.  Some like this aspect, counting grams, others do not.  But minimal gear and minimal weight are important for this touring to work.  Minimal gear is most important of all.  Its zero weight if you don't carry it.  And you can then use any bike you want.

Would you enjoy it?  Don't know.  Some people do not enjoy vacations unless they stay in AAA hotels and have limousines drive them everywhere.  Or only go in bus size RVs with Jacuzzi hot tubs.  Others enjoy riding all over the world on an old K-Mart bike with milk crates to carry their gear.  I expect you could look at your current lifestyle to determine whether you would like minimal touring.  If you drive a 15 year old manual transmission compact car to work and the store and are happy, then you would probably do fine touring with minimal gear.  If you must drive the half mile to the convenience store to get your fix of Twinkies using your $88,000 XLT AAA Super Mega SUV pick-up truck with the air conditioner turned on high, then the minimal touring method is probably not for you.  I doubt riding a bike would even appeal to these types of people.  If you don't use or need any luxury in your life now, and live barebones with nothing extra, you have enough, nothing extra, then minimal touring would probably work for you.  If your house is stuffed full of stuff, if you buy stuff all the time, if you love shopping, then the minimal touring method probably won't work for you.

Offline OutSpokyn1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2016, 01:57:55 pm »
Well I'm not a minimalist but I'm not a huge consumer, gotta stay at the Ritz either. I'm somewhere in between and the point of the my tour is:
1. See parts of this marvelous country by bike to stop and enjoy
2. Challenge myself (physically and mentally) but not make it miserable due to wrong choices

So with that said, the comment about not enjoying it, to me, was that the bike would not handle the rigor, even if I traveled lightly and/or I would not because the bike is not ideal for 60-90 days of continuous travel (I would be unduly sore/tired due to wrong riding position and frame characteristics, small tires, etc.).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 07:31:07 am by OutSpokyn1 »

Offline paddleboy17

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2016, 01:14:19 pm »
Russ, thanks I had not really priced the Gunnar frames/forks, etc. I don't think the 480 frame will work for me (too big) but I should compare the specs with the Terry and LHT and also contact Gunnar, especially if I can save $$.

I compared the Gunnar and Terry websites for the bikes.  It appears Terry has Gunnar make them different sized bikes from the stock Gunnar bikes.  Terry does offer one smaller bike than the smallest Gunnar frame.  You might go custom with Gunnar and work with them to make a smaller frame similar to the smallest Terry frame.  Terry gives you its dimensions.  I'm sort of, kind of against the Terry bicycle simply because it is a Gunnar frame.  Terry even says its a Waterford (Gunnar) frame.  So why not skip the middle man (Terry) and buy the frame from its real maker (Waterford/Gunnar)?

Another person argues against buying a frame and building it yourself because the cost is usually more than buying it direct already built as a complete bike.  With the Terry it is very easy to see if this is true or not.  Terry says it is a Gunnar frame/fork.  Gunnar sells its frames direct to the public and lists its prices.  Price both the standard and custom options.  Terry also lists all the parts on the bike.  Simple to find all those parts on the internet and list their prices.  See if the totals work out right or wrong.  Biggest benefit for building it yourself is you get to pick every part yourself and get what you want.  Not accept a half-arse part you don't want.  Like 32 spokes instead of 36 for a loaded touring wheel.  ???  Or lower and better mid range gearing than what Terry offers.  An 11-36 cassette instead of the 11-34 Terry offers.  A 42-32-22 crankset instead of the 48-34-24 crankset Terry offers.  Wider handlebars.  Correct stem length.  Saddle that fits you.  By the time you pay to change all these parts on a stock bike, its probably better and cheaper to buy it right from the beginning.

I am pretty sure that all the custom frames are Waterford and all the stock frames are Gunnar.  So there is no custom Gunnar.  A Gunnar is always TIG welded, and a Waterford could be TIG welded or lugged (silver soldered).  And if the frames are the same size, and come from the same tube sets, and are both TIG welded, then why is the Gunnar less expensive and is it better than the Waterford frame?  Waterford frames are done one at a time, and Gunnar frames are done in batches.  This is sort of like comparing machine built wheels with custom wheels, done to the the same rim, spokes, and hubs.  Should you not know, there is more attention to details (like spoke tension) in a custom wheel.

I used to be an automotive engineer, so I will throw out an analogy.  Back when cars were more generic, a model might be available as a Ford, a Mercury, or a Lincoln.  So you could find a Ford with the same trim level as Lincoln, and the Ford would cost less than the Lincoln.  I was in engine engineering, so I can't speak to all of the differences between a Ford and a Lincoln, but a Lincoln had to always start on the first crank--a Ford was allowed to stall once.

I would bet that these are Waterford frames done to Georgina's specifications, which includes a smaller frame size than is available from Gunnar.

I want to know how she gets the weight down to 20.5 pounds (does include saddle, does not include pedals, does not include racks).  I think she is making assumptions about a woman's more petite weight, as I would not normally spec a 32 spoke wheel in a touring bike.  Georgina is a pretty straight shooter and has long held a good reputation.  I am more incline to trust Georgina, than I am to trust Trek or Specialized or any of the other big bike companies.

I think our original poster has a misguided perspective on weight.  The frame normally accounts for 4-5 pounds (for a quality steel frame) out of the total weight of the bike.  The rest of that weight comes from the components and wheels.  I would expect a steel touring bike to come in at 23-25 pounds (no racks or fenders).  I don't know why the LHT is 28 pounds.  Maybe the frames are heavier due to the using single butted tube sets able to dampen on frame flex on a loaded bike.  I seem to remember an LHT frame and fork is ~$700, so there has to be reasons why it is $1100 cheaper than a Gunnar.  Sure the welder in Wisconsin gets paid more than one in Taiwan, but shipping cost are down too.

A loaded touring bike is not going to be nimble and it is not going to be quick and that just needs to be accepted.  One can spend $1200 on an LHT and get this and $3500 on a custom bike and get that.  The weight of the load can be reduced by eating out and/or not camping.  Life is full of tradeoffs.
Danno

Offline OutSpokyn1

Re: Terry Touring Bikes - Coto Doñana Tour
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2016, 01:53:22 pm »
I suspect the Terry weight is the complete bike minus pedals, but since she won't answer this question directly, it makes it impossible to compare to other bikes. Also, since I cannot test ride her bike and she is reluctant to answer any direct questions and says I should trust her, I am now reluctant to spend that kind of money on this bike, so I will most likely go with the LHT and save weight where I can in other ways. I just can't determine the advantage of a custom bike at this point (having no experience), so seems foolish to spend the money on a bike I can't even test and hope it will be 250% better! Maybe after this initial tour or sometime down the line, I will.