Author Topic: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end  (Read 19005 times)

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Offline RussSeaton

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2016, 01:06:14 am »
Not so - I decide to forgo my rarely used third ring before I discovered that Sram road and MTB components are compatible.
I'm using a 36/22 x 11-36 combination.
36 x 11 gives me a 25mph top gear at 90rpm. I'll have to be going down a mineshaft to need higher.
22 x 36 gives a 17.4 gear inch low gear - plenty low.
I find the gear progression quite natural and comfortable.

36x11 equals 23.6 mph at 90 rpm.  88.4 gear inches.  Sort of quick.  But with a tailwind and level ground, you can easily go faster.  Almost all down hills will get you much faster than 23.6 mph.  I coast down all hills without pedaling faster than 23.6 mph.  Vast majority of people would be unhappy without a higher gear.

22x36 low gear equals 16.5 gear inches.

Personally, I'd opt for a 40-22 crankset over your 36-22 rings.  Combined with a ten speed SRAM 11-36 cassette of 11-13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36.  You would have 15 usable gears on your 20 speed bike.  Your 36-22 gearing results in 14 usable gears.

One of the problems with double mountain bike cranksets on touring bikes is they do not come from the factory setup like this.  Every touring bike comes with a triple crankset and shifters/derailleurs for a triple crank.  If a person wants to use a double crankset on a touring bike, they MUST build it themselves.  Either buy all the parts and frame and build the complete touring bike themselves.  My choice.  Or buy a stock bike with a triple and replace shifters, crankset, derailleur.  Costly and wasteful.

Offline RonK

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2016, 03:08:28 am »
Not so - I decide to forgo my rarely used third ring before I discovered that Sram road and MTB components are compatible.
I'm using a 36/22 x 11-36 combination.
36 x 11 gives me a 25mph top gear at 90rpm. I'll have to be going down a mineshaft to need higher.
22 x 36 gives a 17.4 gear inch low gear - plenty low.
I find the gear progression quite natural and comfortable.

36x11 equals 23.6 mph at 90 rpm.  88.4 gear inches.  Sort of quick.  But with a tailwind and level ground, you can easily go faster.  Almost all down hills will get you much faster than 23.6 mph.  I coast down all hills without pedaling faster than 23.6 mph.  Vast majority of people would be unhappy without a higher gear.

22x36 low gear equals 16.5 gear inches.

Personally, I'd opt for a 40-22 crankset over your 36-22 rings.  Combined with a ten speed SRAM 11-36 cassette of 11-13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36.  You would have 15 usable gears on your 20 speed bike.  Your 36-22 gearing results in 14 usable gears.

One of the problems with double mountain bike cranksets on touring bikes is they do not come from the factory setup like this.  Every touring bike comes with a triple crankset and shifters/derailleurs for a triple crank.  If a person wants to use a double crankset on a touring bike, they MUST build it themselves.  Either buy all the parts and frame and build the complete touring bike themselves.  My choice.  Or buy a stock bike with a triple and replace shifters, crankset, derailleur.  Costly and wasteful.
Not quite.

36 x 11 using 29" x 2.3" tires = 94.7 gear inches and gives just over 25mph @ 90rpm.

And 22 x 11 gives 17.7 (my typo previously).

Personally I don't care how fast a bike goes downhill - and I don't know why any other cycle tourist would either. The subject is touring, not racing. Once you have reached to the top of a climb you have earned a breather on the descent. If you spin out, you spin out - so be it (for me that would at > 130 rpm - around 35mph).

So odds are I will be coasting downhill, and on the flat I definitely will not be pedaling a loaded bike at anything like 25mph unless there is a very strong wind behind me.

However, this bike is set up bikepacking. Sram have plenty of chainset options for higher overall gearing if you want to build a road tourer.

As I have posted, the gear progression is natural and comfortable. The amount of overlap between the rings is quite convenient and reduces the number of chainring shifts.

On the road it works extremely well. This not mere opinion, this is actual experience riding the bike. It is so nice to ride that I'm considering upgrading the Shimano 44/32/22 x 11-34 triple arrangement on my road tourer to the same, or more likely a 2 x 11 arrangement.

A 38/22 chainset will give the same high gear with 700 x 35 tires which will suit me just fine.

In fact there are quite a few factory offerings now with 2x MTB drivelines. They are marketed as adventure bikes and are redefining touring bikes. They are equipped for touring nonetheless, with alternative driveline arrangements, fender and rack mounts and multiple bidon mounts, with frame clearance for decent sized tires too. There are a just few examples listed here.

2016 Buyer's Guide: Best Adventure Bikes

Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

Offline staehpj1

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2016, 06:50:12 am »
I actually went with a 39/26 with a 12-28 (7 speed) on a coast to coast tour and was pretty happy with it.  That works out to a range of 25.1 to 87.8 with the wheels and tires I was using.

When I wanted to go faster down hills, I just spun up a quick burst at the top of the descent to get my speed up and then coasted.  That quick burst was often way above any cadence I could maintain for any distance.

The 25.1 might be kind of high for those who want really low gears and pack heavier, but I found it just fine for me on that trip.

Some of the newer Sram MTB drive trains have a 10-42 cassette and I have seen conversions that allow a 9 tooth cog so you can have a very wide range even with a 11X1.  I have found the gaps between gears to be acceptably close, but YMMV.  I think that if I were specing a loaded touring bike from scratch I'd probably use an 10X1 or 11X1 Sram MTB drive train with Sram road shifters.  That probably won't happen though since I have too many bikes already.

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2016, 12:39:32 pm »
36 x 11 using 29" x 2.3" tires = 94.7 gear inches and gives just over 25mph @ 90rpm.

So odds are I will be coasting downhill, and on the flat I definitely will not be pedaling a loaded bike at anything like 25mph unless there is a very strong wind behind me.

In fact there are quite a few factory offerings now with 2x MTB drivelines. They are marketed as adventure bikes and are redefining touring bikes. They are equipped for touring nonetheless, with alternative driveline arrangements, fender and rack mounts and multiple bidon mounts, with frame clearance for decent sized tires too. There are a just few examples listed here.

2016 Buyer's Guide: Best Adventure Bikes

700C x 2.3".  No longer road bike touring.  I don't know if this forum has a discussion for off road riding or not.

I ride my touring bike unloaded some.  A higher gear would be nice, required.  Tailwinds, slight downhills.  You go above 25 mph frequently and want to pedal.

Your link showed many mountain bikes, bikes with bar end shifters, disc brakes.  I did not see one example of a road touring bike with STI/SRAM shifters and a double crank and able to hold racks, etc.  Your link proved my point very well.  You cannot buy a road touring bike with a double crank and STI/SRAM road shifters.  Thank you.  You have to make the bike yourself.  Factories do not sell it.

Offline AdventureRide

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2017, 08:59:59 pm »
I run my barcons in friction mode and switch seamlessly between 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes.  The same 9 speed chain works just fine with all.  I've had brifters.  They're fine.  I just feel more in tune with the bike with the barcons.  Plus I get the mentioned adaptability and a less finiky drivetrain.  Just keeping it simple.

Offline RussSeaton

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 01:58:02 pm »
I run my barcons in friction mode and switch seamlessly between 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes.

You switch between 8-9-10 speed cassettes on the same bike?  Do you have numerous wheels that break frequently and require you to switch at an instant notice?  A little over 100% of tourists use the same wheel with one cassette on it.  If the wheel breaks they may have to put a new wheel on the bike, requiring them to remove the old cassette from the old wheel and put it on the new wheel.  Or have a brand new wheel with brand new cassette in waiting.  Switching cassettes takes a few minutes.  And with 8-9-10 cassettes, they all have the same extreme limits.  11-34 more or less.  You just end up with extra intermediate gears with 10 over 8 cassettes.  Looking on Nashbar the cassettes all seem to be priced about the same.  No 8 speed for sale though.

Offline AdventureRide

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2017, 07:52:26 pm »
Chill Russ. No more coffee for you. I've got three or four wheel sets among the bikes in my stable. They all have different sizes and brands of tires and they're all interchangeable. Some of the cassettes have tight skips, others run up to 36 teeth. Horses for courses. Sometimes you come across a cassette clearance deal at the LBS. It's nice to have some flexibility.   Not every ride is a tour ride, but when I am on tour it's nice to know that if I somehow manage to destroy the cassette du jour I could probably score a satisfactory replacement in any berg LBS with my friction barcons.

Offline dancingcyclist

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2017, 06:39:47 pm »
I went through this very same thing when I started looking into getting my tour bike. They all came with bar-end shifters and after road bike riding for years with STI's trying to adjust to bar-ends was not working. I like to tour on both paved roads and also unpaved Rail Trails and just couldn't get comfortable maintaining my line while shifting with bar-end. Even though my first road bike used down tube shifters. STI's are so much quicker and stable with two hands on the bar, when in gravel this is nice. I also like to have a mirror mounted on the end of my left bar end.

The problem I ran into with STI's with a triple crank and low cassette gearing is that the newer Shimano parts won't work, as per bike shop. Apparently Shimano changed things around so STI's would no longer work with Mt. bike gearing/derailleurs which is what is used on touring bikes. After some research and convincing the bike mechanic I was able to change out the small chainring and front derailleur to get my gearing lower, though still not as low as I need or want.

So your decision comes down to what you need for gearing to suit you're riding needs. If you want STI's you won't get as low of gearing then if you go with bar-end. There is always the possibility of finding some used older shifting components and a good mechanic.

Hope this helps, good luck

Offline DaveB

Re: Shifters-integrated vs bar-end
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 08:54:58 am »
I went through this very same thing when I started looking into getting my tour bike. They all came with bar-end shifters and after road bike riding for years with STI's trying to adjust to bar-ends was not working. I like to tour on both paved roads and also unpaved Rail Trails and just couldn't get comfortable maintaining my line while shifting with bar-end. Even though my first road bike used down tube shifters. STI's are so much quicker and stable with two hands on the bar, when in gravel this is nice. I also like to have a mirror mounted on the end of my left bar end.

The problem I ran into with STI's with a triple crank and low cassette gearing is that the newer Shimano parts won't work, as per bike shop. Apparently Shimano changed things around so STI's would no longer work with Mt. bike gearing/derailleurs which is what is used on touring bikes. After some research and convincing the bike mechanic I was able to change out the small chainring and front derailleur to get my gearing lower, though still not as low as I need or want.

So your decision comes down to what you need for gearing to suit you're riding needs. If you want STI's you won't get as low of gearing then if you go with bar-end. There is always the possibility of finding some used older shifting components and a good mechanic.
At the risk of redundancy I'm going to again suggest the Gevanelle brifters.  They are available in 9,10 and 11-speed versions and offer shifters compatible with both Shimano's Dyna-Sys MTB rear derailleurs as well as road rear derailleurs and both mechanical (caliper, disc and V) brakes and hydraulic disc brakes.   All front shifting is friction so they work with nearly any crank and front derailleur.  Low low gears are no problem and the cost is equal to or lower than most brifters.

As I noted above they offer all the accessibility of brifters with the durability and versatility of barends. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:57:05 am by DaveB »