Author Topic: Rear derailleur dilemma  (Read 4098 times)

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Offline froze

Rear derailleur dilemma
« on: October 03, 2023, 07:39:02 pm »
I had an issue with my 2019 Masi Giramondo 700c, something was wrong with the frame that allowed it to flex almost a foot to either side in the rear when loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork under warranty, and did so hassle-free which pleasantly surprised me. 

They sent me the newest 2023 Giramondo frame and fork, but for some reason, it came with Microshift XCD rear derailleur which I think is a clutch design?

The front is the MS XLE derailleur.

To my question; is the MS XCD a better front derailleur than the Deore that my bike came with in 2019 for touring with loads?  OR should I skip both and get a Shimano Deore XT? 

I do know that when I'm under load the original rear Deore derailleur doesn't shift as well as it does with no load, not sure why that would be happening, but it could be due to the unusual amount of frame flex I was getting with the 2019 Giramondo.

And the other related question, is the MS XLE a better front derailleur than the Deore?  Or should I upgrade it to Deore XT?  I haven't had any issues with the original Deore, so I'm thinking that since the front isn't as critical as the rear either transfer the Deore to the new bike or leave the MS XLE on it instead.

I don't know anything about Microshift, nor do I know anything about a clutch derailleur, will a clutch derailleur work better when under load?

I want a derailleur that will last a very long time and shift good when under load.

Thanks for your all help.

Offline canalligators

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2023, 08:53:40 am »
I do know that when I'm under load the original rear Deore derailleur doesn't shift as well as it does with no load, not sure why that would be happening, but it could be due to the unusual amount of frame flex I was getting with the 2019 Giramondo.
...
I want a derailleur that will last a very long time and shift good when under load.

Is this just because derailleurs don't really like to shift well under load, but today's derailleurs can do that - up to a point?  I learned to shift on second generation derailleurs. long ago, and still shift under low/no load.  Which is probably better for the equipment anyway.  To me, if it shifts well under no load, I'd be satisfied.

Offline froze

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2023, 09:23:57 am »
I do know that when I'm under load the original rear Deore derailleur doesn't shift as well as it does with no load, not sure why that would be happening, but it could be due to the unusual amount of frame flex I was getting with the 2019 Giramondo.
...
I want a derailleur that will last a very long time and shift good when under load.

Is this just because derailleurs don't really like to shift well under load, but today's derailleurs can do that - up to a point?  I learned to shift on second generation derailleurs. long ago, and still shift under low/no load.  Which is probably better for the equipment anyway.  To me, if it shifts well under no load, I'd be satisfied.

I had an older 1985 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe that had Suntour Mountech on it, and it shifted just as good under load as it did without, I would have thought the newer stuff would have been better, or at the very least the same. 

So does a clutch derailleur like the Microshift XCD work better under load?  Or would the Deore XT clutch work better under load?  OR, since you mentioned the older stuff maybe I should just put on the old Mountech?

Offline misterflask

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2023, 06:22:11 pm »
Oh my gosh, that was a rabbit hole to go down.

I got curious about your Mountech, which I had not heard of before.  Stumbled on this site:
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/suntour_derailleurs_-_frank_berto_and_the_curse_of_duopar.html
which seems to have photos and writeups for every derailleur ever made.

The linked page talks about the Mountech.  The TL;DR is that the Mountech was objectively one of the best shifting derailleurs ever made with a unique 3-pivot design, but chasing quality problems was a source of Suntour's downfall.

Nothing to go on here, but they apparently straightened out quality as you're riding an extant specimen, and I've read different stories of Suntour's downfall (there was an excellent hx in Bicycle Quarterly).  The triple pivot idea intrigues, but the writeup notes that it just wasn't enough better than a Deore XT to drive the market.

For those who have not yet reached a certain age, or had this vague tickle at the back of their mind, 'Disraeli Gears' was a 1967 Cream album.

Offline froze

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2023, 07:55:37 pm »
I don't agree with the Disraeli article, maybe the first year or two of those Mountechs and of the Superbe Tech, had issues, but I know the later years, the ones I've got, have had ZERO issues, and remember the one Superbe Tech I have has over 150,000 miles on it, if there was a problem with the design it would have reared its ugly head years and miles ago. Nothing has ever bent, and the weird thing is, you won't believe this, but the Superbe Tech with the 150,000 miles has NEVER had the jockey wheels replaced, and they're not cracked to this day.

The problem with those derailleurs was the issue of dirt, they didn't like dirt, so I kept mine very clean and made sure all the pivots and bearings were well lubed, I have always used Tri-Flow for all my components and cables, just not on the chain because technology has improved with chain lube. 

I have never used the Huret Duopar derailleur, nor ever known anyone who had one, that is how rare they were, at least in the USA.  Could the Duopar shift better?  Hmmm, all I can say is that a lot of people raced on Campy Nuovo Record back in the day, and I still have a bike with Nuovo Record, and Suntour Superbe Tech shifts better, thus I would be inclined to think that Mountech would shift at least as well as Duopar if not better, but I could be wrong.

My Mountech was built probably in 84 maybe 85 because it came original from the factory on a 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe, so it is a later model, but based on my experience the Mountech did not destroy Suntour.  Shimano destroyed Suntour by first coming out with SIS, or index shifting, Suntour was left scrambling to come up with their version of index shifting, and the first derailleurs were object failures! That failure is what got Suntour on a slippery slope to doom.  Suntour was a very small company, Shimano was a giant company, they built all their cycling components whereas Suntour got some of their stuff from Dia Comp and renamed it, Shimano was also huge into fishing gear.  This all meant that Shimano had a large research and development operation that dwarfed Suntour, Suntour was hopelessly lost against such a giant, and once the patent ran out on the Suntour slant parallelogram derailleur design Shimano jumped on it and incorporated the design in their derailleurs, that was the nail that closed the coffin.  Other things helped doom Suntour, and all this crap sort of happened in 10 years of hell period, the yen devalued in the mid-'80s, the slant parallelogram patent ran out, index shifter failure, bad news about the Tech series of derailleurs, sales dropped off to just 5%...yeah, you get the picture.

Personally, this is tough to say, but I think the bad news about the Tech series was propaganda perpetrated by Shimano!  That propaganda was repeated over and over and over by others in the industry so much so that it became a "fact".  I know people who have had those Tech derailleurs personally, as well as on forums, and not one person has ever said anything negative about them, well if they were such junk then people who used them personally would be shouting hate for those derailleurs, but none of that is happening even almost 40 years of still being used!  That is why I believe it was a smear campaign started by Shimano to try to put Suntour out of business, and it worked along with other factors.

Offline dkoloko

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2023, 10:22:11 am »
I had extensive experience with the Huret Duopar rear derailleur. It was a fine derailleur for friction shifting. It did not index well and faded from use.

Offline froze

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2023, 09:25:24 pm »
I had extensive experience with the Huret Duopar rear derailleur. It was a fine derailleur for friction shifting. It did not index well and faded from use.

But was the Duopar better than the Superbe Tech??

Offline dkoloko

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2023, 10:32:19 pm »
No personal experience with Superb Tech friction or indexing.

Offline froze

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2023, 02:37:58 pm »
UPDATE:  Haro as you all know from what I reported earlier did a fantastic job of sending me a new frame and fork to replace the old one that had some sort of warranty issue with either the frame or the fork.  Received the bike quickly with no problems such as a damaged bike from shipping.

I contacted Haro about the labor and they told me, as their warranty implies, that they would pay the labor and take the bikes to a local bike shop in town that was an authorized dealer for Haro and they would pay the bike shop directly for the labor.  About 3 weeks ago I took the bike into the shop, the owner later contacted Haro and told them how much the labor would be and Haro told them they would pay in the form of a store credit, the bike shop owner told them that he couldn't accept store credit because his landlord wouldn't accept store credit to pay for the lease on the building, he's in!  The store owner told me what happened, so I tried contacting Haro 5 times since then and no one is returning my calls, nor is anyone returning any more of the store owner's calls.  This last Saturday the store owner told me to come to pick up the old bike and the new frame and fork and take it someplace else because he wasn't going to work for free, at that point I offered to pay him instead, but he refused because if there was some sort of future warranty issue who's going to pay him? He also told me that he would no longer do any warranty work for Haro, and was going to end his contract with them.

The only way that Haro would pay for the labor is for me to take it to a dealer and Haro would pay them, well now that dealer where I live won't do it, and the next closest dealer is 2 hours from me, which I'm not going to drive that far to take the bike into and then run into the same payment problem with them!

I don't understand and find it extremely odd that Haro did such a great job at getting the new frame and fork out to me, but are now refusing to honor the rest of their warranty as implied in it, and as it was spoken to me over the phone that they would cover the cost of the labor.

Offline froze

Re: Rear derailleur dilemma
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2023, 06:47:57 pm »
Warranty update:
Haro was very slow at responding about the money for the labor, but I found out that most of their staff got Covid so no one was around for 2 weeks, the 2 weeks I was calling them!  LOL!! Because I didn't hear from them I took the bike to a bike shop in town where I know the people that run the store, so I paid them for the work.  About 2 weeks ago I got a call from Haro, the rep there told me what had happened to the office, I believe their story because they were extremely fast at getting the new frame and fork sent to me, and now they're sending me a check for the amount I paid for labor.  They don't normally send money to a customer because a bike shop that is authorized to sell Haro bikes gets the money in the form of Haro credit, but in this case, they made an exception due to the circumstances and trouble with the Haro dealer in town.

So this whole thing turned out pretty darn good overall.  Haro has an amazing warranty service department, I am very happy with the outcome.  I had a problem with a Ridley bike that the frame cracked about 8 months and 8,000 miles into owning it, they refused to honor the warranty and used the excuse that fatigue caused the problem and their warranty didn't cover fatigue.  Haro didn't even question my load placement, I had to volunteer that information, so they might have known there was a problem and they were going to replace the frames as the complaints came in.