Author Topic: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan  (Read 10166 times)

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Offline davidbonn

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2024, 10:08:57 pm »
... but it flat out doesn't work.  ...

To be fair, digital maps and routes do work and when they work well (which isn't all or even most of the time) they are pretty awesome.

Unfortunately, it is still an immature technology and requires too much effort and too much technology savvy to make it work.

Ergonomics is somewhere between pathetic and just barely adequate.

The very best solutions have impractically high levels of power consumption.  Sometimes even the least bad solutions consume too much power.

Synchronization between devices on journey isn't always easy-peasy.

Editing or modifying routes on journey isn't practical or fun unless you are carrying a tablet or small laptop.

Things can fail in bewildering ways if you don't have reliable wifi or cell service, and you may or may not be able to preload all the maps and routes you need into your devices before your trip.

Things can go really haywire if you are faced with a significant reroute or change of plans.

You are probably going to have to master a confusing and often incompatible array of applications in order to have a practical and reliable solution that will work well for you.  At least that is how it has worked out for me.  For me that includes Google Maps, Ridewithgps, ONX Backcountry, and the Hammerhead bicycle computer/head unit.

Having said all of that, I use digital maps and navigation on nearly all of my bicycle travel adventures.  But I agree it is still far too much work to do so.

Offline Bike2it

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2024, 11:24:42 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts, I guess I just don't understand the need for all this complication.  I have never had a map turn off because of lack of power or a bad connection.  I see it as a huge con.  I am definitely in the minority. 

Offline davidbonn

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2024, 11:13:25 am »
Thanks for your thoughts, I guess I just don't understand the need for all this complication.  I have never had a map turn off because of lack of power or a bad connection.  I see it as a huge con.  I am definitely in the minority.

Perhaps.  But everybody's different and if you have found something that works for you there is nothing wrong with it.  It is more important to get out and have a good time.

Perhaps I am a heretic but for a lot of trips there is no need for any map or any device.  On many well-marked routes the only navigation tools you'll really need are your eyes.

For me the huge deal-killers on a paper map are that (1) they can be heavy and bulky on a long trip, especially if they have sufficient detail to be useful, and (2) chances are they are seriously out of date by the time they are published.  And usually the places where you'll need or want a lot of detail are also exactly the places where they are likely to be out of date.

The other place where maps like the ACA maps really lose me is that if you are faced with a significant reroute or change of plans basically you are left with no useful maps at all.  And for myself "change of plans" is pretty much normal operating procedure.

If you frequently find yourself in a maze of poorly marked roads with no good reference points you'll probably want a GPS or phone with decent maps stored offline.  For obvious reasons depending on online mapping is a very bad idea.

The better Garmin GPSes have enormous battery life and pretty good offline maps that are frequently updated.  I think Garmins have horrid ergonomics but it is kind of a pick your poison deal.

An iPhone in airplane mode can usually run just fine for three or four days.  If you use a decent mapping app like ONX Backcountry with offline maps you can puzzle out your location and how to get to where you want to without too much effort.

I use a Hammerhead Karoo, which has superb ergonomics but poor battery life (though so far always enough to cover a day's ride) and their OSM maps, while adequate in built-up areas are seriously inadequate in more remote areas.  But the better ergonomics and turn-by-turn directions (when I need them) make up for the weaknesses of the gadget.

Generally turn-by-turn directions on any bike computer or phone are voracious consumers of your battery.  So only use it when you really think you need it.

In any event you'll want a decent battery pack to charge your gear up, or in the (mostly) unlikely event you run your device battery out.

My perspective on this is that I seldom slavishly follow anybody's route and am usually putting together my own routes and my own trips.  Often these trips are in more remote (sometimes much more remote) areas and involve challenging terrain and confusing routefinding on poorly marked roads.  So of a necessity it is a very different toolset than most other cyclists might use.



Offline Bike2it

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2024, 12:00:04 pm »
Again thank you for your response. 

When I am riding near my home in Winthrop up in the north Cascades I am unable to get reception on the phone, riding in Central/Eastern Oregon many times I am unable to get reception.  It seems that when you need the maps the most is when there is no reception.  For these situations I carry not only ACA maps but USFS maps which like you say are bulky, but never do they shut down. 

My concern has to do with the availability of maps in the future.  Maps appear to be getting fazed out due to the advent of digital.  Digital is cheaper to produce and much more fashionable. ACA appears to be cutting back on the magazine to quarterly issues, saves money I get it, but not better. 
 
By the way what GPS would you recommend?

Offline John Nelson

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2024, 03:09:57 pm »
For me personally, I love digital, although I will also take paper maps if available. When I have only paper, especially on a route with a lot of turns, I find myself stopping way too often to make sure I know where the next turn is.

I only use digital that doesn’t rely on cell service, and has very long battery life (i.e., not my phone).

Offline Bike2it

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2024, 03:54:23 pm »
What GPS unit do you use?

Offline John Nelson

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2024, 05:15:26 pm »
What GPS unit do you use?
Garmin Edge

Offline davidbonn

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2024, 10:51:18 am »
Again thank you for your response. 

When I am riding near my home in Winthrop up in the north Cascades I am unable to get reception on the phone, riding in Central/Eastern Oregon many times I am unable to get reception.  It seems that when you need the maps the most is when there is no reception.  For these situations I carry not only ACA maps but USFS maps which like you say are bulky, but never do they shut down. 

My concern has to do with the availability of maps in the future.  Maps appear to be getting fazed out due to the advent of digital.  Digital is cheaper to produce and much more fashionable. ACA appears to be cutting back on the magazine to quarterly issues, saves money I get it, but not better. 
 
By the way what GPS would you recommend?

What a remarkable coincidence!  I also live near Winthrop and so we probably have ran into each other out in the world.

Right now I use a Hammerhead Karoo 2 which is Good Enough.  It has really good turn-by-turn directions but on the other hand the OSM maps aren't quite as good as the Garmin maps (especially outside of built-up areas) and you have to pay attention to power consumption quite a bit more.  It is generally easier to use than Garmin products (at least that is my perception).

My own view is that printed maps, for most applications, are going to become extinct in coming years.  Largely because of smartphones becoming universal and largely because a decent mapping app with offline maps (of which there are many) is much easier to use in nearly all circumstances than a paper map.  This is unfortunate in many ways, in particular we are losing the art of puzzling out your location with a map and compass (and possibly an altimeter).  It also will make life really exciting if the GPS network ever goes down for an extended period.

You can also, with limitations, pull offline maps (mainly along routes you program) into ridewithgps.  That way you can run all day in airplane mode on your phone and still have some semi-functional maps.

I'd also recommend having some other offline map application as a backup.  I use ONX Backcountry.  Largely because the offline maps functionality is really good.

https://www.onxmaps.com/backcountry/app

Also a weather app like epic ride weather is very helpful:

https://www.epicrideweather.com/



Offline nlansner

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2024, 08:57:16 am »
I'm 100% a paper map fan. I HOPE they don't go extinct, but you may be right.  They do fail to keep up - Even the Delorme map books (owned by Garmin) no longer distinguish between paved vs gravel roads, which was the whole reason I started buying them in the first place.

But it's a digital world and rather than shaking our first at the clouds, we need to find ways to help. As far as I know, ACA is still the best (only?) paved bike-touring planning and advocacy group out there, so we've got to find a way to be part of the solution.  I've found with ACA that generally if you give your feedback, they listen/respond. That does not mean they actually follow it, but they listen.  I just sent my feedback on the strategic plan and advocated for a specific fundraising drive to pay for mapping a new, on-paved route (with paper maps!) or converting a digital only route to paper/digital option. Hope other folks who feel the same way would be willing to contribute.

Offline John Nettles

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Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2024, 10:23:22 am »
Actually, I think a project-focused idea is a pretty good idea.  They could have fund raisers for projects:  new routes, project to get youth to tour, etc. 

However, for me to donate to such a project, if for some reason the project did not reach its financial goal, ACA would have to either say in advance where the funds go if the goal was not reached or refund the donation.  The reason is we donated to for a project about 20 years ago who gave a somewhat inflated goal for a specific project.  When the goal raised 95% at the end, they said the goal was not reached and that all donations were going to "General Expenses".  Ever since then, any meaningful donation our family trust considers is looked at all angles.

Tailwinds, John

Offline Ty0604

Re: Updated ACA website and 5 year plan
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2024, 03:35:36 pm »
One of the reasons I became a member was because of the physical copies of the magazines I received in the mail. I do not like online copies and will not read them so that’s a dealbreaker for me. I would be willing to pay more every year to have a physical copy mailed to me.

I get why they’re doing it but it’s not for me.
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