Author Topic: Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations  (Read 18623 times)

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Offline dannyforberg

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« on: November 28, 2005, 03:26:10 pm »
I need a new rear wheel anyway, and will be riding the northern tier route across the states. Can somebody recommend a reliable loaded touring rear wheel setup?


Offline JimF

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2005, 08:24:06 pm »
I built my rear wheel for the TransAm last summer. I wanted a relatively bullet-proof wheel, so cost was secondary.
Rim: Mavic A719; DT spokes; and Chris King hub. I finished with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires.
No wheel failure or flat tire.


Offline RussellSeaton

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2005, 08:25:43 pm »
36 spokes.  3 cross.  14 straight gauge or 14/15 double butted.  Heavy rim from a name brand company.  Shimano XT or LX hub.  And of course it does need to be laced and trued and tensioned properly by someone who knows what they are doing.

DO NOT buy any factory built wheel (Mavic Ksyrium, Campagnolo Nucleon are road racing factory built wheels.) for loaded touring.  Reasons are when something breaks, spare parts will be almost impossible to find.  And special tools will be required.  And the wheels are usually designed to be light weight and will probably not be as durable when carrying panniers.


Offline wanderingwheel

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2005, 09:03:00 pm »
RussellSeaton hit it on the head, assuming you have 135mm dropouts, the spacing used on mountain bikes and many dedicated touring bikes.  If you are using a road bike, you may have 130mm rear dropouts.  

Measure the distance between the inside faces of the rear dropouts.  If you have 130mm dropouts, simply change the hub to an Ultegra or similar.

Sean


Offline Badger

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2005, 10:38:30 pm »
Is there any advantage in using a rear wheel with 40 spokes other thanfor a tandum?


Offline wanderingwheel

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2005, 02:42:00 am »
40 and 48 spoke wheels are stronger than 36 spoke wheels.  However, 36 spoke wheels are generally strong enough and sometimes finding hubs and rims for higher spoke wheels can be difficult.  Unless you are carrying a very large load, 36 spoke wheels should be fine.


Offline jackkessler

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2005, 02:21:42 pm »
Somebody said in this thread that 36 spokes should be enough unless one is carrying a heavy load.  That is not quite true.  Another factor is how low a lowest gear you are going to use.  With a low gear a lot of force is being transmitted through the hub to the rim, and mainly on one side.  Which means that unless you are travelling light and only in middle or high gears, 36 spokes are NOT enough.  48 spokes, when pulled fairly tight, give a very strong wheel that is unlikely to go out of true, less likely to go out of round, and is unlike to break a spoke.

I know that Phil Wood sells a 48 spoke tandem hub which  is very reliable but quite expensive.  I don't if any others are available.

Another alternative is to build a wheel that is very strong because it has little or no dish.  One can go a step further by using thicker 13 gauge rather than the usual 14 gauge spokes.  Building a wheel without dish means getting rid of your cog cluster by using an internally geared hub.  The two of these that I am aware of are the Shimano 7-speed and the Rohloff 14-speed.  The Rohloff is very expensive but seems to be universally well-spoken of.  It has about twice the gear range between highest and lowest that the Shimano has.  That makes it possible to get rid not only of the cog cluster but also of the front triple and front derailleur.  But that is a subject which goes beyond wheels.


FredHiltz

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Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2005, 08:18:09 am »
Somebody said in this thread that 36 spokes should be enough unless one is carrying a heavy load.  That is not quite true.  Another factor is how low a lowest gear you are going to use.  With a low gear a lot of force is being transmitted through the hub to the rim, and mainly on one side.

Uh... better take that old chestnut to your nearest high school physics student. Simplify it a bit to make the principle clear and keep the arithmetic simple:

A 70-year-old grandmother and a professional racer ride identical bikes except for the gearing. The total weight of bike and rider is the same for both.  She climbs a 12% grade at a steady 2 mph using a 22" gear. He climbs the same grade at the same speed using a 44" gear. (He slows down for her because she is carrying the cookies.)

The spokes transmit torque from the rear hub to the rim. Who makes the greater torque, and by what factor? Assume perfectly smooth pedaling, i.e., ignore pulses of force in your analysis.

Hint: consider the case of zero speed. How would their torques compare in a "track stand" on that grade?

Enjoy.

Fred


Offline DaveB

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2005, 02:24:39 pm »
Quote
I know that Phil Wood sells a 48 spoke tandem hub which  is very reliable but quite expensive.  I don't if any others are available.


"Quite expensive" is a gross understatement.  Absurdly expensive is closer to the truth.  Also, a Tandem hub has a dropout spacing of 140 mm or more.  It won't fit most road, touring or MTB frames.

The need for 40 or 48 spokes for a single bike of any kind is a left-over from the era of plated spokes and weak rims.  Modern 32 or 36 hole rims with DT or Wheelsmith spokes will hold up for years under any reasonable conditions.  Current MTBs use 32 hole rims and 14 ga or 14/15/14ga spokes and they can be subject to stresses no touring bike will ever see.  How about a 19" low gear being cranked up a 30% grade by a strong 190 pound rider?  If those wheels survive, so will yours.

Finally 14/15/14 butted spokes are actually more durable than straight 14 ga spokes.  The thinner center section is a bit more resiliant and cushions the spoke ends.  Remember, except for severe mechanical damage, spokes always break at the head or the nipple end so the "weaker" center is not the failure point.

This message was edited by DaveB on 12-5-05 @ 10:32 AM

Offline fatguyintexas

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 08:36:30 pm »
A couple of days ago I went to my local bike shop to buy(order) a rim, hub, and spokes to build my own wheel.  The mechanic did everything he could to talk me out of it and insisted that a factory Mavic Ksyrium Equipe wheel would be more durable and reliable.  I evenutally left and ordered my stuff online but has anybody actually ridden loaded with one of these.  BTW I have a set of the wheels he mentioned that I use on my other bike and have not had any problems - even at 260 lbs.  I just like building my own.


Offline wanderingwheel

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2005, 06:36:46 pm »
I think the Ksyrium wheels are stronger and more reliable than many hand-built wheels, but not all.  The large spokes and high tension used in the Ksyriums allow them to rival the strength of average hand-built wheels, but their low spoke count will ultimately leave them weaker than well made traditional wheels.

Just because the wheels held up to your weight does not mean that they are suitable for loaded touring.  Your weight is suspended by your legs and arms and does not come crashing down on the wheels all at once.  The weight of your racks and panniers, however, is not suspended and will put a higher load on the wheels.

If you do tour with the Ksyriums, remember to bring spare spokes with you.  It can be very difficult finding the required straight-pull spokes, even considering how popular the Ksyriums are.

Sean


Offline John Nettles

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Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2005, 09:08:22 pm »
I guess I'm too much from the old (ancient ;) ) school.  The only times I have broken spokes (other than a crash) have been when I am loaded touring (under 35 pounds of gear including panniers)while in my 24t chainring.

I weigh less than 150 and used to be the strongest hill climber in the ol bike club when I was in my teens/early twenties so I could really torque when I wanted to.

After many many years and thousands of miles loaded touring, I swear by a few things:  48 spoke wheels, Phil Wood hubs (ok, I bought mine many moons ago), Brooks saddle, a helmet, and gloves.  Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree...just my 2 cents worth :).




Happy trails and may the wind be at your back!

TulsaJohn

Offline OmahaNeb

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2005, 06:42:40 pm »
I too have a Phil hub, which I have used on tours for the past 30 years.  I have 36 hole, 3 cross pattern.  I have never broken a spoke.  I am curious, which is the largest factor in this discussion, is it the fact that custom wheel builds using the best quality spokes are strong, or does the hub make that much of a difference.  Is a $100.00 hub using double butted 14 gauge spokes, custom built, going to break spokes easier that a $350.00 hub?


Offline wanderingwheel

Touring Rear Wheel Recommedations
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 04:37:10 pm »
The $100 hub should not break spokes any more frequently than a Phil.  The Phil hub should be more reliable in terms of bearings, axle, and drive-train.

The hub design can influence the strength of a wheel in terms of spoke breakage.  There are some hubs, such as modern Campagnolos, that have poor flange designs, but most are good enough that it is usually a moot point.  

A well-designed hub would have widely spaced flanges, evenly centered about the wheel centerline.  Modern cassettes make this impractical on the standard 130mm road spacing and this is why most people favor 135 or larger spacing for touring bikes.  In addition, the spoke holes should be cleanly drilled with the correct diameter and the flange thickness should match the spoke distance from shoulder to head.  A taller flange is generally better for the spokes, also.

Sean