New Touring Bike (RTW)

[whittierider]

All are TIG welded frames.  No brazing on them.  No lugs.  If a TIG-welded frame breaks, you will have to weld it back together, not braze it.

True; and even if it were lugged, breaks will usually be just outside a lug, but close enough to it to you can't make another one to go over the crack and get enough material to hold onto on the lug side of the crack.  Putting a lug inside would work, but I think the complex shapes would make it impossible.  And brazing without a lug probably won't be strong enough.  I've seen that kind of repair break on the first ride.

I myself am riding carbon because I don't want to break another steel frame.  My carbon frame already has more miles on it than it took to fatigue and crack my nicest steel one, and I know a few people have ten times as many miles on their carbon as I do.  It doesn't fatigue from hard riding like the metals do, and surprisingly, it is quite repairable.  In August our son, going 25mph, broadsided a car that turned illegally in front of him.  He flew over the car and broke his collarbone and nose when he hit the pavement on the other side; but there was no damage to the carbon, according to Calfee's inspection and tests.  He's still riding the same bike, but with a lot components replaced.  Unfortunately touring bikes are not getting made in carbon.  It's definitely up to the load-carrying capability though, as I've heard from quite a few 350-pounders on the bike forums riding carbon, with no problems.

For a few years there was a web page showing the results of a frame-breakage test where they took about six frames of each material and put them on a jig that stressed them back and forth as if a strong rider were standing on the pedals and climbing a 10% grade rather fast for a mile a day for two years.  The test conditions were a fairly accurate representation of some of my own riding.  There was some overlap in when the various materials broke, but generally the steel ones broke first, the first one going hardly a quarter of the way to the end of the test.  None of the steel ones got much past the middle of the test when the forces were increased.  Next, believe it or not, was titanium.  Next was aluminum, and a Cannondale made it all the way to the end without breaking at all.  None of the carbon broke, although an aluminum lug inside a carbon frame, something I don't think is used anymore, did break.

[RussSeaton]

For a few years there was a web page showing the results of a frame-breakage test where they took about six frames of each material and put them on a jig that stressed them back and forth as if a strong rider were standing on the pedals and climbing a 10% grade rather fast for a mile a day for two years.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

[whittierider]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

Thanks.  A quick looks says that's it.  It's nice Harris picked it up if the other people weren't able to keep their website up for whatever reason.

[MRVere]

Russ > you make a good point.  Might I suggest a Waterford.  Beautiful lugged frame.  About $2200 frame/fork to start and they go way way up.  Many years ago I had my heart set on a Richard Sachs. But, I recently read that he is no longer taking orders unless you have already been one of his customers.  Come to think of it, I'm not even sure he make touring frames.  They are a work of art though.

[RussSeaton]

Russ > you make a good point.  Might I suggest a Waterford.  Beautiful lugged frame.  About $2200 frame/fork to start and they go way way up.

Already own a Waterford 1200.  Made from the finest steel ever made by man.  Reynolds 753.  Short point lugs.  Candy red color.  Beautiful.  My favorite bike.  But I'm not sure I would go for one of Waterfords touring bikes.  The Adventure Cycle 1900 anyway.  Its too nice.  Maybe the TIG welded T-14 would be okay.  Its less nice.  When I've toured my bike took some abuse.  Airline flights in cardboard boxes.  Turned upside down or on the side.  Leaning against stuff and falling over while on tour.  For a touring bike I want a utilitarian bike without any niceness or flash to it.

[Successor to the Professor]

Those test results are fun to look at, but I think the point of the article is construction over material.  Any material can be engineered poorly.  Trek had all sorts of problems with their first line of OCLV bikes in the mid-90's when their pro riders where shattering the bottom bracket shells.

The bottom line for me is that when a steel frame brakes, it can be repaired.  Maybe not immediately or efficiently, but at least it's not trashed.  When a carbon bike breaks, you might as well strip off the components and find the nearest dumpster.  Metal bikes also give you the flexibility of adding and removing features, such as extra bottle cage mounts, fender and rack mounts, pump pegs, and even S&S couplings.

[whittierider]

Ah, not so.  Carbon is easily repaired.  See http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm .  And in most respects, it's much tougher than the metals.  The early problems with carbon manufacture were solved years ago, and without major abuse it will last indefinitely, not fatiguing no matter how hard or long you ride it.  90% of accidents don't affect it.  Calfee also puts S&S couplers on carbon frames.

One can say it's construction over material; but although they didn't break 100 of every model available, there was enough to confirm the pattern I've observed in real life and experienced in my own bikes.  Not a single one of the steel frames made it much past the middle of the test without breaking, and none of the carbon broke at all.  There is no way to make those steel frames more unbreakable without adding weight to an already-heavier frame.

I used to be a steel advocate and enthusiast too, until I did my research.  I was forced to change my mind.

[paddleboy17]

I'm still a chromoly steel bigot.

Last I heard, there were no serious carbon fiber touring bikes. 

I am still suspicious of all the cheap Chinese carbon fiber stuff.  My one bad carbon fiber experience was watching a buddy's handle bars disintegrate while he was riding the bike.  Granted this was the mid 90's, and maybe that won't happen now.   But the guy got no warning, and was lucky to not be seriously hurt.  I don't know if carbon fiber is immune to scratches and UV now--once upon a time those were concerns.

In defense of the material, it can be made to do things that just are not possible with metal.  I'll bet that a carbon fiber critereum or cyclocross bike is a joy to ride.

So I will stick with my 2008 Waterford Adventure Cycle lugged, steel frame.  For the record, I did get plain painted lugs, and not those hand carved, polished, stainless steel lugs Waterford offers.  It is touring bike after all.

[whittierider]

Last I heard, there were no serious carbon fiber touring bikes.

Alas, that's true.

I am still suspicious of all the cheap Chinese carbon fiber stuff.

To me, if a product is made in China, it usually means, "Don't buy it!"  I'm sick of things that don't last, whether it's tools, shavers, toasters, or anything else.  Sometimes there's no choice though.  Most other countries are fine, even Taiwan.  The two carbon-fiber frames in this family were made in Wisconsin, USA.

My one bad carbon fiber experience was watching a buddy's handle bars disintegrate while he was riding the bike.  Granted this was the mid 90's, and maybe that won't happen now.   But the guy got no warning, and was lucky to not be seriously hurt.  I don't know if carbon fiber is immune to scratches and UV now--once upon a time those were concerns.

UV won't hurt it, but overtightening the clamp, gouging it when you install the brake levers, and ultra-deep scratches (not the run-of-the-mill scratches) will endager it.  I've heard first-hand of a lot of broken bars though, all being aluminum except one, and that one carbon fiber one didn't break catastrophically.  It stayed in place but my friend had to keep one hand near the stem for the rest of the ride because he couldn't put any force on it farther out.

The only broken fork I've ever seen was aluminum, and when I worked at the bike shop in the 70's when all bikes were steel and the metal was a lot thicker because it didn't have to compete with other materials, I saw an awful lot of forks bent back way beyond repair, having been ridden into things like parked cars at much lower speeds than the 25mph our son T-boned the car at that turned illegally in front of him in August when he was riding his carbon-fiber bike and didn't damage the carbon.

Another friend works at a place that makes carbon-fiber rotor blades for military helicopters.  He says they have to be able to take something like 100 50-caliber bullet strikes without failure.

When I was doing my research, one thing I read was that NASA put carbon-fiber panels on the roofs of airports all over the world, out in the sun and weather 24/7, and tested the strength at 3, 5, 7, and 10 years, and found no siginificant weakening.  I don't store my bike outdoors anyway.  The new Boeing 787 airliner is mostly carbon fiber.

[Tourista829]

If you are planning an around the world tour, I suggest you go to the following website. Mountain Equipment Coop of Canada. MEC is kind of the Canadian equivilant to REI. They cater a little more to bicycle touring equipment. If you google it and pull up their web site, go to The Learn Tab, on the leftside of the page click on cycling. In the center of the page you will see a topic called Bike Touring Tips. It is put together by Janick Lemieux and Pierre Bouchard, two very experienced RTW cyclists. Their experience has taught them that a good expedition mountain bike is the way to go. You will find their tips and experience helpful not to mention that the site offer some great buys with the Canadian Dollar to U.S. Dollar exchange rate. If, and that is a big if, I were doing an around the world tour, I would only go with a 26" wheel. Since I only tour in the U.S., Europe and New Zealand I like 700c better. I hope this helps.

[centrider]

If you are planning an around the world tour, I suggest you go to the following website. Mountain Equipment Coop of Canada. MEC is kind of the Canadian equivilant to REI. They cater a little more to bicycle touring equipment. If you google it and pull up their web site, go to The Learn Tab, on the leftside of the page click on cycling. In the center of the page you will see a topic called Bike Touring Tips. It is put together by Janick Lemieux and Pierre Bouchard, two very experienced RTW cyclists. Their experience has taught them that a good expedition mountain bike is the way to go. You will find their tips and experience helpful not to mention that the site offer some great buys with the Canadian Dollar to U.S. Dollar exchange rate. If, and that is a big if, I were doing an around the world tour, I would only go with a 26" wheel. Since I only tour in the U.S., Europe and New Zealand I like 700c better. I hope this helps.

I've met 3 touring couples from Europe in So Cal.  They were all riding bikes with 26" wheels with flat handlebars.  I wouldn't necessarily call the bikes mtn, but they were certainly beefy in the MTB way. 

[billysBuddy]

I just returned from 4.5 months touring Belgium, Holland, central Germany (north to south), and the Alsace area of France on a recumbent trike.  Next spring/summer (2012), I will return, with my wife and her new recumbent, to explore more of Europe on recumbent trikes.  It was an awesome experience and look forward to doing it again next year.

Chuck

[tonythomson]

Just finished crossing Australia on a Surly LHT on wheels built to my spec, no probs and it was pretty rough going at times.  My only real advice would be to put your money into the wheels and with a decent frame you can go anywhere.  I chose LHT because it has the longest chain stay I could find which meant I didn't keep hitting my panniers with my heels, yes I know I have big feet.

Use steel carriers as these are the things I have had to have welded up in the past - last time in India, no big deal for them.

[TCS]

Wow, from out of the depths of the archives.

None of the steel bikes mentioned in this thread (Co-Motion Americano and Pangea and Surly Long Haul) are brazed lugged steel frames.  All are TIG welded frames.  No brazing on them.  No lugs.  If a TIG welded frame breaks, you will have to weld it back together, not braze it.

BTW, this is absolutely not true.  There are no alloys or grades of steel that can be welded that cannot also be brazed.  One can, and for the last 120 years many have, brazed bicycle frames without lugs (it's called fillet brazing). 

But of course, we're not really talking about the possibility of a third-world blacksmith reassembling a frame that's come completely apart at all it's joints (although that is an amusing thought).  We're here talking about repairing something like a frame crack.  On a RTW steel bike like the mentioned Co-Motion Americano and Pangea and Surly Long Haul Trucker: clean the paint back, drill a small hole at either end of the crack to eliminate the stress risers, and then brass braze it.  Low-tech & done in villages all over the world.

[paddleboy17]

Wow, from out of the depths of the archives.

None of the steel bikes mentioned in this thread (Co-Motion Americano and Pangea and Surly Long Haul) are brazed lugged steel frames.  All are TIG welded frames.  No brazing on them.  No lugs.  If a TIG welded frame breaks, you will have to weld it back together, not braze it.

BTW, this is absolutely not true.  There are no alloys or grades of steel that can be welded that cannot also be brazed.  One can, and for the last 120 years many have, brazed bicycle frames without lugs (it's called fillet brazing). 

But of course, we're not really talking about the possibility of a third-world blacksmith reassembling a frame that's come completely apart at all it's joints (although that is an amusing thought).  We're here talking about repairing something like a frame crack.  On a RTW steel bike like the mentioned Co-Motion Americano and Pangea and Surly Long Haul Trucker: clean the paint back, drill a small hole at either end of the crack to eliminate the stress risers, and then brass braze it.  Low-tech & done in villages all over the world.

Would the brass filling be stong enough?  The forces that cracked the steel in the first place are still there.

Realistically, I would expect cracks to form wherever there are corners.  Places like where the top tube joins the stear tube.  A braize might proved temporary relief, but I don't think it is a long term solution.   It could be enough of a solution to get you to a larger town, where you would wait for a new frame.  And it is the kind of repair that could not be done with anything other than steel.