Author Topic: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?  (Read 26433 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline paddleboy17

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 12:29:59 pm »
A criteum bike is just strong enough to support the weight of the rider (with some appropriate safety factor).  If you could hang bags on it, and the frame did not break, I'll bet it wiggles while you ride it.  With the short wheel base, I would also bet that you hit the bags with your feet as you ride it.  I tried towing a Bob trailer with my critereum bike, and the handling was just to unstable for me.  Beside, the crouched over position would be tough to do day after day.  And now that I'm 51, I can hardly ride in that position for any extended period.

Touring bikes have a more upright (hence comfortable) riding position.  I don't know what all frame changes are made, but touring bikes are designed to handle all that weight and be stable.

There are some light weight touring bikes (that is the term I hear for the mass produced ones) that are not strong enough for a long tour.  I have seen them wiggle when loaded, and adequately stiff when unloaded. 

I would expect a cyclocross bike to also have stability issues when towing a trailer.  Perhaps there are other reasons why our poster, Summit Ridge, would like to add a cyclocross bike to the stable.

Danno

Offline Westinghouse

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 12:40:58 pm »
Like I said, I would not use a mountain bike for a long distance tour. Sure, you can mount narrow wheels and tires, but why unless money is the issue?
I am satisfied with the touring bikes I have used.

Touring bikes are supposed to be less rigid for a springier, more forgiving ride; not that much less rigid. They are strong, rigid for pedaling efficiency, and longer and more cushiony. The racing bike is built for one purpose, maximum transmission of human power, to pedal, to chain, to wheel; the more rigid the better, thus the shorter frame. Let me say I have never been a bicycle racer. I have never even ridden a racing bicycle. I have read about bikes, frames etc. Racing, road, touring, hybrid, and mountain. The mountain bike too has a more compact, rigid, strong frame. It may take a lot of beating.  Anyway, the bit of loss of efficiency with the touring bike's longer frame is compensated for with a more comfortable ride, or so theory goes.
The extremely rigid frame of a racing type bike will transmit every bump full force where you don't want it to go. The touring bike is less harsh on the posterior with the right saddle and fit.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:48:19 pm by Westinghouse »

Offline whittierider

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 03:30:58 pm »
Quote
Quote
I've talked to a couple of welders about fixing a steel frame, and when I told them how thin it is, they said they wouldn't touch it.

Perhaps you should have talked to a brazer rather than a welder.

I'm sure these men do plenty of brazing too.  But brazing usually requires lugs (which aren't used much anymore, as most modern steel frames are welded); and if a frame has lugs, it is my experience and observation that the tube will usually crack just outside the lug, too close to it to improvise another lug to go over the crack.  Obstacles will probably also prevent getting a lug on the inside.  If you just braze it there with no lug over the crack, it will just crack again very quickly (been there, done that too).

Quote
A criteum bike is just strong enough to support the weight of the rider (with some appropriate safety factor).  If you could hang bags on it, and the frame did not break, I'll bet it wiggles while you ride it.

I've been pleasantly surprised with the strength of carbon fiber, having found on the various bike forums quite a few 350-pounders on CF racing bikes, all without problems of frame strength.  And the side forces the pros put on them in a sprint are amazing, as they briefly put out literally two horsepower, and they definitely want the stiffness.  According to the test results published at http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Flexing%20Their%20Muscles.pdf, the  frame with the greatest lateral bending stiffness is the Cervelo R3 which is carbon, and the one with the greatest BB torsional stiffness was the Cannondale CAAD 9 which is aluminum.  The steel ones were near the bottom of the list.

Unfortunately you still have the problem of eyelets for racks and heel clearance, and, at least for some people, geometry that's suitable for touring.

Offline JayGlo

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 03:59:46 pm »
I am gearing up for my first tour.  I have done several rides over the past few years with my Felt road bike, but they were generally 70 to 100 miles.  I am now looking at purchasing a used touring bike.  Hopefully a Surly LHT.
Any good sites for purchasing used bikes?

Offline Westinghouse

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 09:50:32 am »
I saw one just the other day---a site for used touring bikes. I forget the name. Just goolge touring bicycles. You can try used touring bicycles for sale. I am not sure how comfortable one can be buying a used bike on the internet. Seems like there might be an element of risk involved. You could give it a shot.

Offline staehpj1

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 10:18:06 am »
A criteum bike is just strong enough to support the weight of the rider (with some appropriate safety factor).  If you could hang bags on it, and the frame did not break, I'll bet it wiggles while you ride it.
I would take that bet.  Crit bikes are very stiff being designed for hard cornering and fast acceleration.

With the short wheel base, I would also bet that you hit the bags with your feet as you ride it.  I tried towing a Bob trailer with my critereum bike, and the handling was just to unstable for me.  Beside, the crouched over position would be tough to do day after day.  And now that I'm 51, I can hardly ride in that position for any extended period.

Touring bikes have a more upright (hence comfortable) riding position.  I don't know what all frame changes are made, but touring bikes are designed to handle all that weight and be stable.
Yes heel clearance might be a problem depending on the style, size, and position of the panniers.  Size of feet and position choices would be a factor as well.  Also as you say some will not like the responsive handling of a crit bike for touring, but I have seen folks do fine as well.  I don't see why being 51 is a big factor, I'll be 58 in June.

As far as position and comfort go.  I find road bike position (bars 4 or more inches below saddle) to be supremely comfortable on both long day rides and long tours.  This is especially true as rides get longer.  I never had a moments thought about raising the bars on my TA tour.  The more upright the the more weight on your saddle.  If you can achieve a riding posture with low bars that allows you to lean forward with most of your weight still supported by your legs it can be quite comfortable.  It requires good core strength and I think that it is difficult for some to achieve.  Obviously you want to ride with fairly relaxed arms and not too much weight on your hands.

Offline paddleboy17

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2009, 12:43:55 pm »
A criteum bike is just strong enough to support the weight of the rider (with some appropriate safety factor).  If you could hang bags on it, and the frame did not break, I'll bet it wiggles while you ride it.
I would take that bet.  Crit bikes are very stiff being designed for hard cornering and fast acceleration.

I will challenge your bet (in a friendly and respectful manor). :)

Lets say that you are designing a bike to accommodate 175lb rider.  Now add 60lb of  gear.  Things are now 30% over their design weight. And that 60 lbs is now cantilevered out by a rack.  And the connection method is not perfect--that gear moves about.  The racks are also fastened with clamps, because critereum bikes don't have drop outs.  I cannot begin to guess the physics of small spoke count radial laced wheel.  So there are all sorts of dynamics and moments at work here.  I will stick with the bags causing havoc on a sub $3000 bike, the kind of bike that you see on club rides or being raced by Cat 5 and Cat 4 racers. 

I will concede that a bike on the pro circuit could handle as you have described (wheels are probably the weak link here).

I almost know enough people to get a finite element analysis done.  ;)

I would love to hear your assumptions and analysis.  Maybe we are both right.  ::)
Danno

Offline staehpj1

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2009, 02:41:08 pm »
I will challenge your bet (in a friendly and respectful manor). :)

Lets say that you are designing a bike to accommodate 175lb rider.  Now add 60lb of  gear.  Things are now 30% over their design weight. And that 60 lbs is now cantilevered out by a rack.  And the connection method is not perfect--that gear moves about.  The racks are also fastened with clamps, because critereum bikes don't have drop outs.  I cannot begin to guess the physics of small spoke count radial laced wheel.  So there are all sorts of dynamics and moments at work here.  I will stick with the bags causing havoc on a sub $3000 bike, the kind of bike that you see on club rides or being raced by Cat 5 and Cat 4 racers. 
I think some of this boils down to what the rider is willing to accept, but I really think that excessive frame flexing or breakage are unlikely.

I agree that the racing wheels are not likely to be up to the task of loaded touring.  I also agree that lack of braze ons is a disadvantage.  The fact that gearing on the stock crit bike is inadequate for touring is a given.  The handling issues due to geometry are at least somewhat dependent on the rider's tolerance and preferences.

I can say that my older Cannondale crit bike is quite stiff as is my new fairly low end road bike, both more so than some touring bikes.  I wouldn't be worried in the least that the frame on either would be flexy or floppy with a reasonable touring load (60 pounds is a bit more gear than I consider reasonable, but I am still confident it would be OK).  I also would not be overly worried about frame breakage.  I know a couple guys who tour on similar bikes with good results.  I also met a few doing the TA who were well into their trip and seemed happy with their choices.

Offline bogiesan

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2009, 08:40:50 am »
I put 5-6,000 miles a year on my recumbent. Touring, commuting, transportation, recreation. It does everything except race and does so in supreme comfort. It's not light, it's comfortable. It's not particularly fast but it's totall adequate to the task of getting from camp to camp while providing a heads-up, relaxed perspective.
There are race-specific 'bents and, in fact, recumbents hold every unassisted land speed record but those bikes do not do anything except make speed runs (seek human powered vehicles on google).

david boise ID
I play go. I use Macintosh. Of course I ride a recumbent

Offline RussSeaton

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2009, 10:37:00 am »
There are race-specific 'bents and, in fact, recumbents hold every unassisted land speed record but those bikes do not do anything except make speed runs (seek human powered vehicles on google).

Except any climbing records.  If you look up the Mt. Evans race and the Mt. Washington race you will find recumbents do not hold the record for those.

Offline BareSkrillz

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 02:16:42 pm »
I did this ride (Astoria to Humbolt State University) last summer on a 1992 Aluminum Trek 2000. I also towed a stripped down trailer for towing kids. I made it, but it was super hard at some points, plus I'm not sure riding a regular road bike is good for your knees. Mine hurt pretty bad at points. Still, you can make ANYTHING work.

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 04:53:57 pm »
You can ride whatever you want to ride for a tour.  Here at Adventure Cycling, we see standard touring bikes, old 1970's Schwinn road bikes, new carbon road bikes, cyclocross bikes, mountain bikes, recumbents, folding bikes, and more, all loaded.  The truth is, while one bike might handle the load better than another, it's all about how you adapt to the bike and the load.  Once you get used to the way a bike handles, it's going to feel natural.

If you're worried about whether or not your bike can structurally handle a load, opt for a trailer.  There are a million ways to tour and not one of them is right.  I spent years racing, training, and touring on one cyclocross bike with no problems.  Before that I was touring on a road bike, and now I'm touring on a standard touring bike (Surly LHT).  As far as I'm concerned, they all got the job done satisfactory.

Offline bogiesan

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2009, 08:33:47 am »
There are race-specific 'bents and, in fact, recumbents hold every unassisted land speed record but those bikes do not do anything except make speed runs (seek human powered vehicles on google).

Except any climbing records.  If you look up the Mt. Evans race and the Mt. Washington race you will find recumbents do not hold the record for those.

I bow to your superior research. I'll remember that.

bogiesan
I play go. I use Macintosh. Of course I ride a recumbent

Offline scott.laughlin

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2009, 11:50:08 am »
I recall a high school math teacher who pedaled a single-speed Schwinn with a coaster brake from Oregon to New Jersey each summer in the 1980s. 

Scott

Offline RussSeaton

Re: How many people tour with non-touring bikes?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2009, 09:48:20 am »
I recall a high school math teacher who pedaled a single-speed Schwinn with a coaster brake from Oregon to New Jersey each summer in the 1980s. 

Scott

And I know people who rode a fixed gear on Paris-Brest-Paris.  And successfully completed the rainy cold hilly 765 mile ride.  But unless you have a particular psychological reason for doing it, I would not recommend it.  You can ride almost any bike almost anywhere and it will work.  But it is advantageous to ride certain bikes in certain situations if you are trying to minimize effort, problems, etc.